Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > MOC Technical Forums > Solar, Charging Systems, Batteries and Electrical
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-22-2019, 09:21 PM   #1
jdarwin
Montana Fan
 
jdarwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Bedford
Posts: 307
M.O.C. #21728
Swapping out for lithium

We have a 2019 3931FB. It came with 2 interstate grp 24 batteries. I found a solar web site promoting using 2 used 12VDC lithium batteries removed from medical equipment. These batteries have a built in BMS and cables for load balancing. They are only 40amp. The interstates are 85amp. My questions are 1. Can I drop these in without modifying anything? 2. Since lithium batteries are 92% efficient and can be drawn down more than lead acid, will they run as long or longer at the same load? 3. Are there other factors to consider? Thanks for helping out a newbie.
 
__________________
Member #21728
2019 3931FB
2017 F350 6.7 Powerstroke SRW
B&W Companion Slider 20K
jdarwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 05:05 AM   #2
Eagleback
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Full Timer In Naples, Florida
Posts: 1,049
M.O.C. #15731
I am not expert on battery's but isnt there a safety concern with using lithium and fires. I do know there not as bad as LIPO battery's but still a concern anyway? but just checking as i am not sure i could live in a camper with that possible issue.
__________________
2017, 3500 Ram Big Horn, 4x4, Crew Cab, DRW, Aisin Transmission, 4:10. Curt Q20, 2014 Mountaineer 331 RLT, Sailun's on the rv and truck.
Eagleback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 06:27 AM   #3
jdarwin
Montana Fan
 
jdarwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Bedford
Posts: 307
M.O.C. #21728
These are Valence U1-12RT U-Charge RT Series 40Ah Lithium Ion Battery
__________________
Member #21728
2019 3931FB
2017 F350 6.7 Powerstroke SRW
B&W Companion Slider 20K
jdarwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 07:00 AM   #4
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Those particular batteries are lithium iron phosphate chemistry and as such relatively safe and not susceptible to things like thermal runaway.
The first thing you should do is find out the capacity remaining in those used batteries. Nothing wrong with buying used and I would do the same. But you need to know how used they are. In more relatable terms how many miles are we talking about. 20k or 100 k. Your BMS should take care of all the charging profiles. However if it fails what’s your backup. I have always tried to install two means of control when doing DIY LiFePO4 installs. It’s the smart way to go and my BMS manufacturer highly recommends it. The other issue I would make sure you have handle is how to handle freezing temperatures. If the BMS has configuration to retarding the charge current with temp you are probably in business. Other options include heat sources or install in climate controlled locations.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 07:04 AM   #5
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
Lithium will be my next battery. They have all the advantages, except price. Keep us informed on how it goes for you.
Lynwood
__________________
www.harrellsprec.com
Lynwood Harrell
323 RL HC 2008 F250
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 07:19 AM   #6
Arkware
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mena
Posts: 504
M.O.C. #17723
It sounds like your dealer supplied batteries were undersized to begin with.
So, only 80 AH seems to be underpowered, too for your Residential Fridge.

I went with 4 - 6 volt GC batteries that are rated for a total of 440 AH.
Even with about half safe usage, that still leaves around 220 AH.

I believe this will give me plenty of travel time with power left over if we are delayed and need to stop overnight...

Your mileage may vary....
__________________
Ron & Rhonda
2021 3230CK Montana Legacy w/ Super SolarFlex
(old rig) 2015 Montana 3611RL 8K I.S., Disk Brakes, Sailun Tires
2015 F350 XLT Crew Dually 20K B&W Companion
Arkware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 08:24 AM   #7
bshgto
Montana Master
 
bshgto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Hagerstown
Posts: 862
M.O.C. #16013
question

Aren`t the lithium batteries susceptible to fire or explosion from shock or vibration. Isn`t this why they don`t want them on airplanes in baggage? So just one nasty road or large pot hole away from disaster? Was interested in a change out to these for extended refrigerator use on the inverter. I have 2 6 volt batts now but even they have limitations.
__________________
2018.5 3791 Rear Den Montana, on the lake no 3rd A/C, Mini Split, just do it
Electric Brakes ..... Disk Brakes, it`s the only way
F350 Ford Dually 4:10`s w/bags (payload 5595 lbs) Sumo Springs 63 gal aux tank
Reese Goosebox Mor/Ryde SRE 4000 X Factors Monroe shocks.... real smooth ride
bshgto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:44 AM   #8
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Quote:
Originally Posted by bshgto View Post
Aren`t the lithium batteries susceptible to fire or explosion from shock or vibration. Isn`t this why they don`t want them on airplanes in baggage? So just one nasty road or large pot hole away from disaster? Was interested in a change out to these for extended refrigerator use on the inverter. I have 2 6 volt batts now but even they have limitations.
Don’t know about that one. The thing to remember is that there a different lithium chemistries. The airplane thermal runaway issues were due to a much more unstable chemistry. The Tesla vehicles use a lithium manganese chemistry which while more susceptible to thermal runaway are much more stable than som of those news headline grabbing chemistries we all heard about several years ago. The Lithium iron phosphate variety used in RV’s is by far one of the most stable chemistries available.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:50 AM   #9
BiggarView
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: home base IL, OTR anywhere
Posts: 532
M.O.C. #19382
Send a message via AIM to BiggarView
Quote:
Originally Posted by bshgto View Post
Aren`t the lithium batteries susceptible to fire or explosion from shock or vibration. Isn`t this why they don`t want them on airplanes in baggage? So just one nasty road or large pot hole away from disaster? Was interested in a change out to these for extended refrigerator use on the inverter. I have 2 6 volt batts now but even they have limitations.
Sounds like you are heeding old information and news about Lithium batteries. They have evolved considerably since they first came out. As for not being allowed on airplanes, there are certain prudent safe guards because of the lithium "history". If it were 100% true, then nobody would be allowed a cell phone on planes. We know that isn't true and that is because they have changed the chemistry of lithium batteries in many applications to make them less prone to catastrophic failure.
__________________

2017 RAM 3500 Laramie CCLB Dually CTD Aisin, OEM auto level rear air-ride, B&W hitch
2020 3813MS Legacy Cobalt FBP, MORryde 8K IS & pinbox, PI EMS,DIY mods by in-house "craftsman", RV security system Mk1 Beagle Alerter
BiggarView is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:50 AM   #10
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Another point to take note of here in this thread is that if we only compare AH capacities we may be missing some other significant advantages to lithium over lead acid/AGM batteries. For instance lathe OP’s LiFePO4 cells have a higher C rating then the 440ah of golf cart batteries. This means the, without getting too far out in the weeds, that those lithium’s might just hold that constant voltage load online as long as those GC’s do before the voltage drop cuts them out. Also the shear amount of energy the lithium’s will take greatly reduce the charging time. No need for absorption phase of charging which is typically where the heavy lifting occurs. No equalization. The lithium’s will take as much as possible up to your BMS limits during the bulk phase of charging. This will result in much faster battery recovery/charging times. There are more advantages but I think I have made my point with regard to only comparing the amp hour capacities.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 11:33 AM   #11
jeffba
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bastrop
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #20753
There is a switch you will need to flip on your converter. You manual should tell you were it is.
__________________
Mocha, one-eyed toothless, hurricane survivor, Pirate dog
2019 20th Anniversary Edition 3701LK
B&W 20K for Ford OEM Puck
2018 Ford F-350 Lariat CCLB PSD DRW KJ5CQH
jeffba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 11:44 AM   #12
jeffba
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bastrop
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #20753
I called them. They said they would work in a 5th wheel. you just should not go over 4 in parallel.
__________________
Mocha, one-eyed toothless, hurricane survivor, Pirate dog
2019 20th Anniversary Edition 3701LK
B&W 20K for Ford OEM Puck
2018 Ford F-350 Lariat CCLB PSD DRW KJ5CQH
jeffba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 12:13 PM   #13
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffba View Post
There is a switch you will need to flip on your converter. You manual should tell you were it is.
Are you referring to boost mode?
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 01:26 PM   #14
bshgto
Montana Master
 
bshgto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Hagerstown
Posts: 862
M.O.C. #16013
More research needed on this but watch vidieo move to 1.25 for fire?
Would kinda like this to work out for campers but maybe cost prohibitive.

Yikes!! the real hot seat

__________________
2018.5 3791 Rear Den Montana, on the lake no 3rd A/C, Mini Split, just do it
Electric Brakes ..... Disk Brakes, it`s the only way
F350 Ford Dually 4:10`s w/bags (payload 5595 lbs) Sumo Springs 63 gal aux tank
Reese Goosebox Mor/Ryde SRE 4000 X Factors Monroe shocks.... real smooth ride
bshgto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 06:24 PM   #15
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Tesla batteries are not what we are talking about here. Different chemistry.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 06:38 PM   #16
suny07
Montana Fan
 
suny07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 355
M.O.C. #21337
I bet the audi was telling a bad joke
__________________

Montana 3123RL Legacy 'Boon-docking Edition'
RAM 3500 Mega Cab Cummins Diesel DRW
suny07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 06:43 PM   #17
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by suny07 View Post
I bet the audi was telling a bad joke
In German.
Lynwood
__________________
www.harrellsprec.com
Lynwood Harrell
323 RL HC 2008 F250
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 08:50 PM   #18
jdarwin
Montana Fan
 
jdarwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Bedford
Posts: 307
M.O.C. #21728
Thanks for the feedback. I've been concerned I didn't have enough AH and was considering adding a 3rd grp 24. Then I came across the youtube link below. That got me to doing some research and came across the second link about lithium. Lithium-Cobalt-Oxide are the batteries that catch fire. Lithium Iron Phosphate are safe. I am looking at purchasing some used units from medical applications. Those batteries have built in BMS and load balancing. I didn't know if I needed to do some modifications to the coaches electrical/charging system or other systems.

I appreciate jeffba checking with Keystone. I thought I'd start with a bank of 2 and see how it went. If everything looked good I wanted to expand the bank to 4. That would give me 160 AH for less than $1K.

I'm not promoting this guy. I saw his video and got my brain to cranking.


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-...s-robert-bean/
__________________
Member #21728
2019 3931FB
2017 F350 6.7 Powerstroke SRW
B&W Companion Slider 20K
jdarwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2019, 09:59 PM   #19
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 4,677
M.O.C. #12947
The Progressive Dynamics converter in these rigs will work with wet cell and AGM batteries with no change. To use it with gell cell batteries, there is a jumper that needs to be moved. To use the stock converter with lithium, the converter must be replaced with one that can work with the different charge needs of the lithium batteries.

I just saw an ad for a new Trojan battery, which is a lithium that will work with the converter just like a normal wet cell. It's called a Trillium and this might be the perfect battery for those who don't want to modify their rigs. https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...-battery-line/
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 06:25 AM   #20
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
The stock will work but it will not fully charge the batteries which may actually be ok since unlike lead acid they don’t require full charging to be happy. Also be cautious if you expand your lithium pack later. You need to have balanced cells with the same relative capacity.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.