3/4 ton versus 1 ton

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by BB_TX

The OP's question was about the brakes on an F250 vs an F350, not anything about a dually.
If you look at this Ford web site you will see that they spec the rotors on the F250 and F350 as being the same size, including the DRW. The F450 has larger rotors.
And if you look at napa web site you will see that they give the same part numbers for replacement pads for both the F250 and F350.
That pretty much confirms that there is no difference in the brakes between the two, at least for 2012 Ford.

Did you check the booster? Are they the same?

Phil P

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by DQDick

Normally true, but mine uses the same ones.

Chrysler uses a large hydro boost to improve the braking check that part number. They also use a larger accumulator on both the 3/4 and 1 ton than GM does that’s a real plus to me. You will get 2 brake applications where the GM will only get one in the event of a hydraulic pump failure.


Phil

[tanner1070]

Just bought a 2013 GMC 1 ton a few months ago. Had the same question. The only thing I could decern in my research was that the 1 ton has overload springs and the 3/4 ton didn't. Even the weight difference bore this out. Only being 62 lbs heavier than a 3/4 ton. Everything else I could tell was exactly the same. Not sure about other brands.

[DonandBonnie]

Five years ago when we first started to put our full timing plan together, we talked to a Chevy truck guru who was a pro at matching the proper truck to the load. He said that a 3/4 ton would take a Montana almost anywhere you wanted to go. It would bog down on steep hills and watching the weight was critical to avoid overloading the truck. He also said that a 1 ton was a slight overkill, but we would never have to worry about where we were going or the load as it relates to hauling capacity. We opted for the 1 ton and have never regretted it. We are not opposed to the dually we purchased, but when it comes time to replace the truck, we will have to think hard whether we really want a dual rear axle.

[richfaa]

If the newer one ton single wheel trucks have the carry capacity for our Montana we would go with the Single wheel. If not it has got to be the dually. It is not a matter of do I like it is matter of we need it.

[bncinwv]

The only thing that really puzzles me about all of these conversations about trucks is the constant references to the braking ability. If you are relying on the truck to brake the rig, something is amiss. If the rig's brakes are properly adjusted and the brake controller is properly adjusted, the argument about whether the truck will stop the load is not a valid one in my opinion! I would think if you are relying on the truck to stop the hauled combination that very easily could approach eight tons, you are setting yourself up for a jack-knife situation. The rig should be adjusted so that the brakes complement the braking ability of the truck and BOTH should brake as evenly as physically possible. Would someone please explain to me where this argument is not valid, and particularly in an emergency braking situation. We chose the dually simply because of the weight capabilities, the braking power of the truck did not figure into the equation. Comments and clarification of my thoughts whether to agree or disagree are welcome (as always)! And I did not mention the weight capabilities so I am proud of myself!!
Bingo

[Phil P]

Hi

If you can’t apply full brake power to the trailer at 5 mph on dry pavement and slide the wheels then the braking system on the trailer is marginal.

At 88,000 lbs and 18 wheels if I pull the trailer brake handle without using the tractor brakes all wheels on the trailer will lock. This is a proper braking system.

Equipment trailers with duel wheels and tandem axels with electric brakes will lock the wheels when I use my electric controller without using the TV brakes. This is a proper breaking system.

The braking systems on the average 5th wheel RV is a marginal system.

Like richfaa says a little overkill on the TV would be desirable.

My wife and I have been driving lager vehicles so long we don’t have a problem with the places you have to avoid because of the wide TV.

Phil P

[Mudchief]

Bingo, I agree with you.

[pineranch]

Good point on brakes Bingo. Why not close out the new year with how you REALLY feel about truck ratings!!!
Mike

[bncinwv]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hi

If you can�t apply full brake power to the trailer at 5 mph on dry pavement and slide the wheels then the braking system on the trailer is marginal.

At 88,000 lbs and 18 wheels if I pull the trailer brake handle without using the tractor brakes all wheels on the trailer will lock. This is a proper braking system.



Phil P

That is not the way my Prodigy instruction manual states the trailer should be set up for proper brake operation. I thought the brake controller was supposed to be set to the point just before brake lockup? Not being argumentative, but I think each person should be aware of what their system set-up recommendations are.

Bingo

[Hooker]

quote:Originally posted by Mudchief

Bingo, I agree with you.

Me too.

[davidaf]

Why do I want the largest brakes? Maybe it's a false sense of security when towing or a true sense of security when running around with a 4000lb payload. The only auxiliary braking my truck camper has are those four jack stands which wouldn't hold up well if deployed.

[Rondo]

I went from a 3/4 tone to a 1 ton this last change of TVs. It is the exact same TV except for a little heavier braking system and also the extra two leaf springs on the rear axle. The motor and transmission are also the same as the 3/4 ton. The ride is a bit more stiff but aside from that there is no difference. Oh, by the way, I have a 2012 Chevy 3500HD and had a 2007 1/2 Chevy 2500HD.

[Phil P]

Bingo

Nowhere in that post did I say the controller was to be set so the brakes lock. The first line tells you what the conditions are for the rest of the post.

I agree that the controller should be set so the brakes apply to the point just before they lock.

However the brakes on most 5th wheel RV’s will not lock the brakes on dry pavement regardless of where you set the controller. The trailer brakes are supposed to be of the sizes to lock the wheels when the full 12V is applied to them. Properly equipped trailers do lock the brakes when full 12v power is applied and then you set your controller so you don’t slide them on a panic stop. How do you determine where this is if your trailer brakes will not slide the wheels on dry pavement. You use a gravel road or pavement with sand on it. Doing it this way only proves the brakes are marginal. Dexter told me the brakes are marginal when I talked to them.

The brakes work they are just marginal and because they are marginal you should sizes your TV accordingly.

Phil P

[bncinwv]

Maybe I read it wrong, just want to make sure that others who may also read it wrong realize that the proper way to set up the brake controller is to not lock up the tires. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the truck size selection being based on braking, that was not a factor since I chose and purchased our truck before I bought our first fifth wheel.
Bingo

[bethandkevin]

quote:Originally posted by bncinwv

The only thing that really puzzles me about all of these conversations about trucks is the constant references to the braking ability. If you are relying on the truck to brake the rig, something is amiss. If the rig's brakes are properly adjusted and the brake controller is properly adjusted, the argument about whether the truck will stop the load is not a valid one in my opinion! I would think if you are relying on the truck to stop the hauled combination that very easily could approach eight tons, you are setting yourself up for a jack-knife situation. The rig should be adjusted so that the brakes complement the braking ability of the truck and BOTH should brake as evenly as physically possible. Would someone please explain to me where this argument is not valid, and particularly in an emergency braking situation. We chose the dually simply because of the weight capabilities, the braking power of the truck did not figure into the equation. Comments and clarification of my thoughts whether to agree or disagree are welcome (as always)! And I did not mention the weight capabilities so I am proud of myself!!
Bingo

x2
Anyone, and I mean anyone who thinks they can "control" a 15,000 lb trailer with an 8,000 lb tow vehicle in a panic stop situation is woefully mistaken. JMHO
There, I said what I've thought every time this subject comes up.

[jlb27537]

The OP asked about brakes. A 2500/3500 the same year will have the same size brakes. Late model trucks have limited rear axle ratios on SRW trucks.

Your trailer should have brakes capable of stopping it's total weight.

A set of 6K axles on a trailer weighing 14+K needs larger brakes.

Your truck should be capable of carrying the weight of it's self and any loaded weight and not exceed either axle rating or the vehicles GVWR.

Your choice as to what truck you need. The SRW guys will say their truck is plenty, the rest of us like our DRW trucks.

Jim

[dsprik]

My 2013 GMC 3500 SRW max trailers 17,000 lbs of 5th wheel... Who only has 8,000?

[Phil P]

Hi Bingo

Many years ago when I was 20 I went to Lubbock Texas to a private training facility to obtain federal rating that I couldn’t use until after I was 21.

During this time I worked for the local Ford dealer as a line mechanic. At that time Texas had a vehicle inspection requirement. They used this requirement in two ways. One was to inspect the vehicle and the other was to certify the mechanic.

I obtained the inspection authorization by passing the Texas written test.

Now we did a brake test on all vehicles once a year. The test was conducted by using an accelerometer that was hung from the top of one of the side windows. You accelerated to a given speed (it was 50 years ago so I don’t remember the speed) and then applied the brakes to a stop. The accelerometer would indicate the rate of deceleration. It was not necessary to “lock” the wheels to pass this test.

The requirement for the braking system on any vehicle is still a deceleration in a given distance from a given speed and doesn’t involve the “locking” of the wheels.

You point that “locking” the wheels is not the object is well take and not disputed.

However in the absence of equipment to determine the deceleration of the unit the other way to determine your brakes are “marginal” or not is to “lock” the wheels while not using the TV brakes. If you are unable to do this then it indicates one of two things. Either the trailer is overloaded or the braking system is “marginal” in that it just passes the testing required by the regulations under which the axels were manufactured.

I don’t propose the idea that Dexter or any other manufacturer is producing and axel rated at a given weight capacity to be installing brakes that don’t meet the deceleration requirement.

The post was to indicate that every commercial vehicle I have driven pulling a trailer regardless of type of brake had brakes on the trailer that would “lock” the wheels at full weight on dry pavement and the average 5th wheel trailer will not “lock” the wheels at any weight on dry pavement while not using the TV brakes (applying the trailer brakes by hand).

Your selection of a TV was performed in the same way I did mine.

If you TV's GCW rating is at or below your weight then your braking system will be acceptable.

My wife and I decided on the TV that would pull a trailer of those sizes. We purchased a trailer that is rated a little over the size the truck is rated for. That is why I weigh so often to make sure I haven’t exceeded any of the published ratings for the TV or the trailer and I keep the weight ticket with the trailer. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in prison because some idiot pulled in front of me and I ran them over.

Phil P

[mhs4771]

Well if we look at Brake Technology, the electric Brakes on most Trailers has not changed since the beginning of time other than the change from 6 Volts to 12, while the weight and size has continued to go up and up.
For me with any of the bigger/heavier rigs, the only brakes I'll accept are Disc. Did the upgrade to our Monty and a world of difference, so it was a must when ordering our SOB. Now I'll admit if we were to have a brake failure on our SOB we'd need plenty of space to bring everything to a stop, but on the other side of the coin, the built-in exhaust brake does a wonderful job of slowing the entire setup down so little braking effort is required.
My experience and I'm sticking to it.