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Old 07-27-2009, 11:27 AM   #1
rgg1943
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Granada Hills
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M.O.C. #9323
Montana Zebra Ceiling

July 27, 2009

I have a problem with our 2008 Montana 5th wheel that has me stumped.

Beginning sometime in Dec 2008 the ceiling and wall beams on the inside of our trailer began to turn dark. At first we thought the lines were shadows, but soon realized that was not the case. The ceiling material (dust/diesel exhaust, ?, etc.) can be wiped off, but the around the ceiling staples is stained terribly. Virtually every horizontal and vertical beam in the trailer is discolored. I wrote to Keystone in April this year, sent pictures of the problem and this is their response:

May 4, 2009
I have had 2 technicians review your statements and pictures. One worked on the Montana line, the other ran a dealership and is a master certified technician and the product developer for the Montana line. The diagnosis was the same and here are their comments listed below:

In regions with high humidity the aluminum tubes will absorb heat at different rates than the material around it i.e.; wood, Styrofoam, or fiberglass. As a result the cold spots will draw more surface moisture from the ambient air than any other place in the wall or ceiling. Any air born particles such as dust, diesel exhaust soot, or environmental pollution will collect in these areas and cause discoloration. As too why some coaches’ do this and other coaches don’t I have seen this happen to motor homes with cloth ceilings all the way down to small travel trailers with vinyl paper ceilings. This is not anything new and other than appearance does not affect the unit in any adverse ways. Some of the factors that may apply to why one unit does it and another one does not would include ambient temperature, Air quality, Interior temperature, type of use, Ventilation, and so on. No two units are exactly the same and no two owners use them in exactly the same way.

At this time, there isn’t a recommendation that would remove the staining short of replacing all the materials. We regret that this condition would not be eligible for warranty consideration.

Regards,
Robyne Hakes
Keystone Customer Relations
866-425-4369

I have spoken with every Montana RV'er I have seen for the last 4 months and no one has ever seen this. We are full time RV'ers and Keystones explanation just doesn't make sense to me. Other trailers should exhibit this problem and we've talked to people that have been on the road a lot longer than we have (2 years). The Mike Thompson dealership in Colton, CA told me it was "diesel" exhaust. That doesn't explain the walls where the discoloration is coming from "inside" the wall and cannot be washed off. Also, how come no other Montana has a problem like this? Why would diesel exhaust stick to just the beams in the ceiling and nowhere else? Just because they are colder? We also use 3 of the moisture collecting "dry Z's" in the trailer to collect extra moisture. Plus, most of our travels have been in CA, OR, WA, AZ which are usually pretty dry in the summer.

I would appreciate any assistance you could give me in this matter. I am not really sure what to do next. We believe that this is a Keystone manufacturing mistake and should be fixed by them. It does not appear that cleaning the ceiling would do any good, just change us from a Zebra trailer with “stripes” to a Leopard with “spots”. The material in the walls cannot be washed off so cleaning the ceiling would still leave a problem.

I wish I could attach my pictures of the problem so you could see the extent of our dilemma.

Thanks,
Bob
rgg1943@gmail.com
 
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:34 PM   #2
PSFORD99
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I also have the a 2008, and have not had a problem like yours. after a trip my right front landing gear is black from the diesel soot , as is a small portion of the lower right side,and have no interior problems, that is a strange one. Hopefully someone has an answer
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:42 PM   #3
sreigle
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We had that same problem with the dark lines on the ceiling in our 2003 3295RK and several other of our members had that happen, too. In our case, the cause was the slight smoke from candles. Even the supposed smokeless candles caused the dark lines. Once we quit using them and went to the candle warmer, we stopped having the problem. Are you burning any candles, smoking, or otherwise generating any smoke in the rig?

Along the lines of what you were told, we were told the aluminum rafters tend to sweat (from condensation) a bit and that would allow the smoke to "stick" to those locations. I am not sure I'm explaining it correctly but hopefully the general idea comes across.

I had understood the switch to steel roof rafters, instead of aluminum, with the 2007 model would eliminate this problem. We have not tested that to find out. No way do I want to scrub the ceiling again.

Good luck.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:39 PM   #4
swanny
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well add me to the list. while in Florida this past June I had a problem with water (condensation buildup) in my ceiling. This was NOT from the ac unless water can run uphill. I own a 3465sa 2009. I developed a water drip right over my steps to the bed room. The light lens was full of water and dripping out. We were in FL. for to weeks and the drip started about the 4th or 5th day and never stopped. I removed the light from the ceiling and put my fingers in the hole for the light. the top side of the ceiling had standing water on it. IT WAS SOAKED!!!!!!! and no It wasn't rain. we had ZERO rain. The only thing it could be was CONDENSATION. We had the air on for two weeks 24/7. So now I also have two stripes and a lot of small brown spots on the panels in the ceiling. While we were there we didn't go in and out (at the beach all day) we didn't cook inside, ran the exhaust fan during and after each shower and removed anything wet from inside. WE DID NOTHING WRONG TO CAUSE THIS!!!!!!!!!!! SO, is this going to happen when we camp in a hot climate with ac running in our "arctic package montana"????

I will be on the phone tomorrow with the dealer. I haven't reported it yet.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:01 PM   #5
sreigle
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Swanny, that sounds like the seal on the AC is not doing its job, for whatever reason, and the condensation is coming inside instead of rolling off the roof. A friend with a motorhome had this happen and they found the AC was installed (dealer install of second AC) with bolts with too long a shoulder. They snugged up nicely, or seemingly so, but actually had run out of thread without fully compressing the seal. The result was what you described. Yours may be something different but if they have trouble finding the cause you might ask them to check those mounting bolts. Good luck.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:38 PM   #6
swanny
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no the water was running off the roof as it should. my ac is in the back of my monty. the water was dripping from the light about 10' away uphill. My ac is at the low point in the ceiling / roof.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:31 PM   #7
Roamingusa
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Ours has the same stripes in the ceiling, seems to follow on the beams? Seems I first noticed it during our first cold spell here in Reno. I tried washing the area, but it did no good.
Chris
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:19 AM   #8
sreigle
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Chris, we had to use a scrub brush. It took several scrubs to get it to where it was barely noticeable if you looked for it. That's the best we could do.

Swanny, I have no idea what's happening on yours but haven't seen that much condensation that it would drip from the ceiling. Hopefully this is something that can be fixed although I'm at a loss unless there's a leak on the roof and the water stream hits that leak. Sorry.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:22 AM   #9
nunya
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We had the same problem with stripes on the beams! I cleaned the entire ceiling with Awesome, product from $store, it removed the discoloring and cleaned up real nice. Wife smokes so I`m guessin its from that? It got worse thru the winter months? There is now a slight return in some areas so guess we will clean it again...........Oh well!
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:04 AM   #10
swanny
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It's my opinion the stains are coming from moisture / condensation. I believe keystone is correct in saying "the aluminum tubes will absorb heat at different rates than the material around it i.e.; wood, Styrofoam, or fiberglass". But when they say "As a result the cold spots will draw more surface moisture from the ambient air than any other place in the wall or ceiling. Any airborn particles such as dust, diesel exhaust soot, or environmental pollution will collect in these areas and cause discoloration". That in my opinion is a bunch of crap. The ceiling is discolored under the cross members because they create condensation. This moisture then stains the ceiling as a leak in your home would do. How does condensation happen? It's hot, cold and humidity. So follow me on this, Hot outside on roof. Cool / cold on the inside. How about the humidity? Well just maybe the humidity comes through the two vents in the roof. my humidity reading in the monty was very low. Hey Keystone i don't want to hear my ceiling is stained under each cross member because I smoke (which i don't) I have a diesel truck, i camp were it's dusty or there is smog in the air!!!!! The ROOT cause is water / moisture!!!!!!!!!!! You can say,"As a result the cold spots will draw more surface moisture from the ambient air than any other place in the wall or ceiling. Any air born particles such as dust, diesel exhaust soot, or environmental pollution will collect in these areas and cause discoloration". You also say no two coaches are the same. Well I'm glad YOU said that. My problem came from moisture, a lot of it!!!!!!

very unhappy with my product, Kevin
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:05 AM   #11
swanny
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It's my opinion the stains are coming from moisture / condensation. I believe keystone is correct in saying "the aluminum tubes will absorb heat at different rates than the material around it i.e.; wood, Styrofoam, or fiberglass". But when they say "As a result the cold spots will draw more surface moisture from the ambient air than any other place in the wall or ceiling. Any airborn particles such as dust, diesel exhaust soot, or environmental pollution will collect in these areas and cause discoloration". That in my opinion is a bunch of crap. The ceiling is discolored under the cross members because they create condensation. This moisture then stains the ceiling as a leak in your home would do. How does condensation happen? It's hot, cold and humidity. So follow me on this, Hot outside on roof. Cool / cold on the inside. How about the humidity? Well just maybe the humidity comes through the two vents in the roof. my humidity reading in the monty was very low. Hey Keystone i don't want to hear my ceiling is stained under each cross member because I smoke (which i don't) I have a diesel truck, i camp were it's dusty or there is smog in the air!!!!! The ROOT cause is water / moisture!!!!!!!!!!! You can say,"As a result the cold spots will draw more surface moisture from the ambient air than any other place in the wall or ceiling. Any air born particles such as dust, diesel exhaust soot, or environmental pollution will collect in these areas and cause discoloration". You also say no two coaches are the same. Well I'm glad YOU said that. My problem came from moisture, a lot of it!!!!!!

very unhappy with my product, Kevin
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:04 AM   #12
sreigle
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Nunya, I would guess you are right it's coming from the smoke.

Swanny, you may be 100% correct but, in our situation, we had lived in our rig, fulltiming, for quite awhile and had no problems until we started burning those aromatic candles to make the place smell nice (so I'm told). And we had no more problems after stopping the burning of candles of any kind (including the so called smokeless candles) and getting the ceiling cleaned. That's why I'm convinced that's what caused it, that combined with the moisture from the rafters. The moisture I'm sure continued when not burning candles but it did not cause any stripes for us. This is just our situation and it may well be different in yours. Good luck in getting this solved.
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:53 PM   #13
blamb
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Add me to the list as well, actually. I am glad I read this thread because after someone mentioned lines being caused by candles I looked up at my ceiling because I burn incense. Sure enough there are lines on my ceiling, heaviest where I burn the incense. Now I know not to burn anymore! Whoops! Unfortunately I can't reach them to clean them. Oh well. Actually I don't know how I will live without my incense... maybe I'll just have lines, lol.

For the record it has been very humid for several weeks where I am at. I have been running my AC almost nonstop, though.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:43 PM   #14
swanny
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I burn nothing my rig is brand new. The lines are there because it's damp / wet from condensation on the roof joists. Why do you think it's only there and nowhere else. There is a problem when the inside is cool / cold and outside is hot. The lack of good insulation allowing cool and hot to meet. The joists transfer the cold from inside and the hot from outside the outcome condensation running down to the ceiling. I also have small dark spots on and around the discoloration. Another thing, if the ac ductwork is put together like the furness ductwork I'm sure cold air is blowing into the area above the ceiling.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:45 PM   #15
thor
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hi swanny. your last reply sounds to me that you are right about the ac ducking not being correct.sounds like the ac is blowing cold air in the attic and causing your problem.sometimes montanas work is not up to par.
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