Frozen at 31F!

[sreigle]

This one has me totally stumped.

We have heat taped the water hose and park's water pipe. We're getting water into the coach just fine. The other night it got down to 7 degrees and we froze the low point drains up into the belly, shutting off water, despite the insulation I put on the low point drains. So I replaced that with heat tape. We finally thawed out yesterday when the temperature got into the forties.

I don't know for sure how cold it got last night but the forecast was for 31. When we arose this morning it was 31 degrees. We had hot water for a short time and then it just died. Didn't trickle, just died. We still have cold water. We have the hot water faucets open and have the cold ones dripping, just in case.

I just now popped the pressure relief valve on the water heater and we have hot water there, so the tank is not frozen up.

So we apparently are frozen up somewhere on the hot water line only.

The forecast for the next few days is for very cold temperatures, down to lows of 17, 8, 0, 12, 29 for the next five nights with highs on those days of 25, 20, 18, and 41. So we're not going to thaw out for awhile. Today was supposed to reach 37 but it looks like this morning's 31 was the high for the day. It's 1:45pm and it's dropped to 30. Last night and this morning should not have caused a hard freeze.

I checked the heat tapes and the lights are on, indicating they're heating.

We don't have any skirting on the rig. There is a little wind. Weather.com says windchill is 20F. The furnace is set on 70 and runs frequently.

I'm at a loss. Any ideas out there?

Thanks.

edited -- forgot to add that, wierdly, we have a light stream of cold water coming out of the hot water faucet in the shower. It is definitely cold water. But the propane burner on the water heater is running right now and water from the pressure relief valve when I pop it is very hot. This is really strange. Makes me wonder if we have a problem other than freezing that's blocking the hot water. I'll doublecheck that our bypass didn't get turned but if it did then I'd think we'd have cold water out of all the hot water faucets.

[sreigle]

Well, I just flipped the bypass on the water heater so water bypasses the heater. We have full flow on both hot and cold lines. That means there's a problem with the water heater itself. I don't think the lines at the heater are frozen. I can see them inside and it's a very short run outside the bypass. So I guess I'll drain the water heater and see what happens. Something must be obstructing the outgoing water flow.

[Dennis and Carol]

Steve, could it be the check valve at the top of the water tank. Our trailer is across town so I can not check it. I am trying to remember which way the check valve restricts the flow, but I think it normally restricts the flow into the top of the tank. If it is stuck, it possibly could stop the flow out of the top of the tank into the hot water lines.

[Montana_657]

That's what happend to me Steve, but if you turn on the by pass cold water should flow through the lines. If it does, go find my post with photos on how to dismantle the check valve.

I suspect that it is more likely you have a loop of water line laying on top of that useless arctic package foil bubble wrap. If you can get in there, put a spacer under the water line and get it up in the air so the conduction of heat through the belly liner doesn't freeze the tube.

Sorry your not closer, I'd come and give you a hand.

[sreigle]

You were both correct. It was the check valve. I didn't know there was one there until I talked with our dealer. He didn't have the right valve so I had to go to another dealer. Fortunately they stayed a few minutes past closing time for me. I just finished putting it in. It's not difficult, it's accessible in the 3295RK, fortunately. We had water when I flipped the bypass so that clued me it was something with the water heater. Thanks to both of you. We're back in business. With a low of 13 tonight, high of 18 tomorrow (latest forecast) and about four days before we're above freezing again I guess we'll find out if heat taping the low point drains will keep us from freezing up. I'm a bit concerned about any pipes in the belly that either are laying on the frame or are below the insulation. Hopefully we don't have any of that. As cold as it's going to be I'm reluctant to leave water running all night, after reading the horror stories about the sewer line freezing up and water backing up into the rig. We'll leave the furnace a bit higher tonight, at 60, to keep plenty of warm air going into the belly. I'd rather pay for more propane than have four days without water.

[Dennis and Carol]

Steve, another thing you might want to consider is covering the "low point drains" with a foam faucet cover. Should be able to get one for a few $$$ at any hardware or building supply place. We put them over our exterior faucets as added insurance against freezing. An i-screw screwed into the bottom pan would give you an easy way to attach the cover.

[sreigle]

Dennis and Carol, I'm not sure what a foam faucet cover is. I'll do a search on that in a minute. I did cover the heat tape with a few wraps of fibreglass insulation and then duct taped the whole thing. I'll check into that cover. Thanks. On the outside park spigot, I heat taped and wrapped that, then filled a five gallon plastic bucket with loose roll fibreglass insulation and put that over the faucet. For the outside shower I just shoved in a bunch of insulation and closed the door. Same on the city water hookup, insulation behind the door, faucet connection wrapped and taped, and the hose heat taped, foam pipe insulation tubes and fibreglass insulation all duct taped.

I'll show my ignorance. What's an i-screw? Is that like a toggle bolt?

Searched and found the faucet cover. Looks like there's several kinds and sizes so I'll see if I can find something long enough to cover the drains. Still wondering about the i-screw, though.

Thanks.

[stiles watson]

After reading of your trials and tribulations, I think I am glad to be in the South right now. Warmer weather will make our northern quest more pleasant. May, after retirement, could be about right. Stay warm and get that shower before the water gets stiff.

p.s. I have stored all this information away in my "just in case file", so thanks for posting.

[Montana_2694]

sreigle,

What was up with the check valve on top of your water heater? I understand it was stoping hot water flow but did it malfunction or freeze? Just curious.....

[Montana_1280]

Glad your water is working, Steve. Pretty miserable with none or only cold water. Did that for a couple of days. Those cold showers are not for me. Happy trails and Merry Christmas.

[Montana_2388]

I have learned a lot reading this forum but this is my first post. I thought that I would tell my solution for freezing low point drains. Get a foam ice chest from WalMart, and throw away the lid. Put a board in the bottom and mount a light socket on it, and put in a 25 or 40 watt light bulb. Wire the light bulb to a temperature switch plugged into an extention cord. The temperature switch should be inside to cooler. Put sticky back foam tape around the top of the cooler. Bungee the whole mess over the low point drains. The light bulb will come on at about 35 degrees and go off at about 45, or whatever the range is on those switches. The temperature switches can be found near where they have heat tape at Lowe's or Home Depot. This isn't good for on the road but works when parked.

[sreigle]

Wow, lots of great posts to respond to. I'll start from the bottom and work up and hope I don't miss any.

Rholm, great idea! We already have heat tape on them so probably won't need to do anything further but this is a great idea for someone looking for a solution. Thanks.

Alongcamejones, I am with you there! Vicki washed her hair in frigid water yesterday. I just forewent (is that a word?) the shower until we got it fixed.

Smoketrain, I don't think it froze since on our model it's inside under the kitchen counter and I've heavily insulated that area. Didn't feel like it was all that cold when I was working in there. The inside of the checkvalve housing looks just like that white pin in the city water inlet when you remove the screen. Spring pressure keeps the valve closed to keep water from coming into the heater from the outlet side. Water pressure opens the valve from the tank side to let the hot water flow. On the city water one there's a black o-ring. I didn't see any o-ring in this one. The white pin has a cross member (it's plastic) that holds the pin to the spring. That cross member broke off and the pin was just loose in there. I'm not sure why it wouldn't allow water pressure to open the valve but it wouldn't. The original was in a brass housing. The dealer I bought the new one from (it cost five bucks) had only the nylon housing type but the threads were right, it works, and it doesn't leak, so I'll go with it. I'm wishing I'd bought a spare now. This dealer stayed open a few minutes for me to get there so I didn't want to back out when I saw it wasn't brass and I knew I wouldn't find another dealer open that time of day. And we didn't want to go another day without hot water.

Dennis and Carol, went looking today for a faucet cover. It was 12 degrees (up from the low of 10) when I was out so didn't go but to one Lowe's store. The ones I saw there won't fit over the low point drains but I'll keep watching for them. Thanks for the tip. I think we're ok on the low point drains now but am not positive. I think the heat tape is doing the job. See below.

Gruffy, I suspect you're right that the remaining problem is in the belly. At 12 degrees with windchill below zero I don't plan to spend my afternoon on my back under the rig so it will have to wait for warmer weather. If we have to we can use the parks showers. We seem to have no problem keeping cold water in the bathroom (for flushing and drinking water) since those get water from outside prior to the low point drains and the lines in the belly, on our model. Now, if someone had a nice warm building we could pull into without paying dealer service rates....

Here's what we are dealing with now. I awoke at 3:30 this morning for one of nature's famous calls. Checked water at the bathroom sink. Cold was fine as it always is there but the hot was running rather slow. So I let that one run until I was getting hot water full blast, then went back to bed. At 6:30 I checked again, same thing, same result. Had I slept all night we might have been short of hot water. At 8:30 I checked the kitchen faucets. Both were slow so let them run until we had full flow. Every hour or so we're checking it. We do see some slow flow some of the time so have to do this hourly. We are going to lunch with friends for a couple of hours so I think I can leave water running a small stream, both hot and cold while we're gone. Our sewer line is on supports and has no sags where water would accumulate and freeze. I popped the connector from the dump pipe and there is maybe 1/8 inch of ice along the bottom there. I just finished showering and Vicki is showering now so we'll likely be ok for the two hours we'll be gone. Will check the sewer connection when we get back and if needed will either run some hot water for awhile or hit it with a hairdryer. Also, last night we put the furnace on 60 instead of 55 so it would get more hot air in the belly. I think I'm going to go with 65 tonight and tomorrow night when it's supposed to get down to zero fahrenheit. Yesterday I paid for a spare 100 lb propane bottle, knowing we're going to need it. I doubt we'll use all of it before we leave so this lets me leave the furnace running higher without an agonizing squeak of the wallet. It's already paid for and there's no refund on unused propane so might as well use it.

Thanks for all the suggestions. This is a great group of people.

[Montana_2713]

Does the freezing of the low point drains result in no hot or cold water in the kitchen area? This happens every time it freezes outside. I am new at this and just learning about living in this RV.

[sreigle]

Yes, it can, Russell. They can freeze and not cause a problem until they freeze back up into where they Tee into the water lines inside the belly. One of them is hot water, the other cold. Once they freeze into the tee and shut down the flow of water you'll lose all water at faucets that are beyond that tee. For us we still have cold water in the upstairs bathroom at the sink and toilet but no cold water in the kitchen. And no hot water anywhere. I hope I answered your question. By the way, it may affect different locations in other models. Ours is a 3295RK.

[Native Tex]

Steve - you asked about the foam covers....go to any home depot or lowe's home center and ask for the outside fawcet covers. They are foam and are large enought to cover the low point drains. They will give insulation R factors of about 12. This should help to keep these things from freezing. These are the covers you use on a stick built home for the same process.

[sreigle]

Thanks, O.V. Right now ours are wrapped with electric heat tape, then covered with fibreglass insulation, then the whole thing duct taped. So I just have to plug it in when the temp is going to get below about 22 or so. I'll keep those covers in mind, though, just in case..

thanks for the tip.