More failures

[JandC]

Rich, this is sort of related. While we have been at this resort in Florida this winter we have noticed an odor from our kitchen sinks. At first we thought it was maybe the gray tank getting a little funky or the trap under the sink itself. We always leave our grays open. I closed my grays for a couple days and added a gray tank cleaning solution, then I dumped them and back flushed using my attached Flush-King about 4 or 5 times. At night prior to going to bed I dumped Lysol into the sink trap and let it sit overnight.

My point is, now we have come to the conclusion that we don't have smelly gray tanks or nasty sink traps. I think we are getting a sewer smell back up through the resorts system. We never experienced this back home or traveling in our unit, just in this Florida resort CG. Maybe some of these sewer issues have something to do with barely being above sea level down here in SW Florida, don't know. We will be keeping our grays closed now except on laundry days.

I know this won't help solve your leaking tank issues, but any additional odors may actually be coming from an outside source.

[richfaa]

Joe. Smell up from the CG system has happened on occasion over the years. Also leaving the galley tank open has caused smell up through the sink drain. In over 30 years of owning Rv's and being in Campgrounds we have see it all. At one C.G we had waste come up through the sewer drain. These leaking tanks seem to be defective tanks. We have seen all the tanks except two that were pulled from our two Montana's and they were all defective or failed at the inlet. We have the Odor issue under control for now by dumping the black and galley tank every day. Here is the story. Are these holding tanks or not. How much can they hold . Are they only good when empty. If they are holding tanks I think they should hold liquid without failing.we are not the only RV owner with failed tanks there are plenty on this forum..

[DarMar]

Yes for sure, there are other reports of failed tanks but yours are the very extreme IMHO. You are using your "Holding Tanks" just as they are meant to be used so there has to be a reason why yours fail and others don't and that must be installation, the angle of a bracket or something.

After 4 Montanas, 2003, 2007, 2010, and I season now with 2015 we have never experienced the dreaded tank failure and like you use our tanks as holding tanks, dumping them every three or four days if we are sitting stationary for a period of time.

This so frustrating I am sure when the problems continue to repeat themselves and yet there never seems to be a resolution. Just dumbfounded, period!!!

[jcurtis934]

On the bathroom grey and black tanks...they run fore and aft...ie, front to back direction. They are held in place by large square tubes and the molded in flanges on the tanks. One of these tubes for each tank is removable to allow each tank to be dropped after inlet and outlet pipes are cut...as well as wires for tank monitor removed. No way to support these two tanks other than by the flanges. For sure, if the tank isn't sitting level on the flanges, there might be a twisting action that might crack an inlet fitting...but this would have to be a total crappy install job of a tank. Could some support be added that would support them from the bottom.....Absolutely! Two or three metal tubes running from side to side bolted into the I beam chassis would be possible...but you would also need some spacers fixed to the bottom of the tank to acount for increasing rise in the tank bottom towards the front. By the way, on my 3800, one of the metal supports at the rear of the tank actually support the tank at the outlet area and this support tube is one that was done by keystone. John

[richfaa]

We have been working with keystone Customer service to resolve our tank failures. We did have some conversations that seemed positive but have not heard a word back in over two weeks. We have decided that we will deal with it ourselves. We will have the tanks replaced at our expense. The failed galley tank that was replaced last June is under Dealer warranty for parts but not labor. The labor was 360.00.The failed black tank will cost 153.00 plus another 360.00 labor .Our extended warranty is not paying for the failed tanks this time as as they are calling it Manufacturers defect. We will appeal to the manufacturer to submit to the Warranty Company that is not a manufacturers defect. I see about 1,000.00..or more in replacement and upgrade to insure this will not happen again.

[richfaa]

just a note.. When the tank manufacturer says the tanks should be strapped and the manufacturer does not do that what would you call that. The Extended warranty company calls it "manufacturers defect"
This is a quote from jimfybarb on another thread today,We have also talked to the vendor.

" called the tank manufacturer and was told that they recommend that thier tanks should be supported not only by the side wings but should also have 2 inch straps supporting the bottom every 18 inches minimum. Keystone chooses not too use the bottom support straps. I believe this issue indicates a trend of keystone marginally engineering components in order to save a few dollars only to transfer major costs to the end "

[DarMar]

Sounds more and more like Keystone ignoring the manufacturers installation specs for sure and why, like just a few bucks??? Still doesn't explain why some have repeated tank failures and the many that have never yet had a tank failure such as ourselves(touch wood).

[richfaa]

Can't explain it myself. Maybe improper installation on the assembly line Employees not paying attention to installation or just sloppy workmanship. We do use this Montana a lot. We live in it for long periods and put a lot of miles on it. These four tanks on the 13 3402 failed after being stationary for a couple of months. We do not come close to filling them to max while on our Florida lot.The galley tank has filled to max a couple of times but are these not holding tanks are they not designed to be filled to max capacity.
IMO failures are directly related to use in terms of how long we live in them and how many miles we run them. It would seem that manufacturers should adhere to vendors specs apparently extended warranty companies think so.

Make no difference now we will take the hit repair the tanks and be on our way. In terms of reporting problems on the forum I am done. We will take care of our self in the future.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

CountryGuy and I have repeatedly mentioned this "strap" issue to top management at the Fall Rally. Note, we have been to all 11 Fall Rallies in Elkhart County.

No need to say more.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Can't explain it myself. Maybe improper installation on the assembly line Employees not paying attention to installation or just sloppy workmanship. We do use this Montana a lot. We live in it for long periods and put a lot of miles on it. These four tanks on the 13 3402 failed after being stationary for a couple of months. We do not come close to filling them to max while on our Florida lot.The galley tank has filled to max a couple of times but are these not holding tanks are they not designed to be filled to max capacity.
IMO failures are directly related to use in terms of how long we live in them and how many miles we run them. It would seem that manufacturers should adhere to vendors specs apparently extended warranty companies think so.

Make no difference now we will take the hit repair the tanks and be on our way. In terms of reporting problems on the forum I am done. We will take care of our self in the future.

Rich, I tend to agree the tank issue may be dependent on how much use the rig gets, but then there are others who full time and don't have issues. That being said, given number of failures you and others have had, there is obviously a problem. Since you reported your 06 failed even after adding straps, the only thing I can guess would be a flex issue in the plumbing when traveling leading to fatigue and cracking.

[rohrmann]

My biggest question is, why do they insist on connecting the black and gray/bath tanks together to the common wye fitting without any flexible fitting to allow a bit of movement? We had a failure, while under warranty, which was repaired and covered by Keystone, and was the black valve and both the square flanges on either side of the valve broke out two of the four corners at the bolts. When CW in Boise made the repair, they installed a flexible coupling. I wonder how many tank failures are caused by this restricted movement in the plumbing off of the tanks?

[richfaa]

We will have the flexible fittings installed on our own $$.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by rohrmann

My biggest question is, why do they insist on connecting the black and gray/bath tanks together to the common wye fitting without any flexible fitting to allow a bit of movement? We had a failure, while under warranty, which was repaired and covered by Keystone, and was the black valve and both the square flanges on either side of the valve broke out two of the four corners at the bolts. When CW in Boise made the repair, they installed a flexible coupling. I wonder how many tank failures are caused by this restricted movement in the plumbing off of the tanks?

Like everything, whenever there is question, follow the money. I have no hard figures, but I'd bet for every tank failure Keystone has, there are a 100 trailers that don't have problems. Yes, we see a lot posted on this board, but people always post about problems. I'm not trying to trivialize the problem, just looking at reasons why some steps haven't been taken. Let's do a "what if". Say Keystone sat down with an engineer and decides to add solid bracing and flexible joints, at a cost per unit of $150 (parts, labor & design cost). In the grand scheme of things, $150 isn't much to most of us, especially those who have experienced tank leakages. But to Keystone, Keystone, if you multiply that figure just in the Montana line (remember they also make several other brand of units) you are looking something like $150 times 80,000 units or $12,000,000 total. Our next rational thought of course is "Just add that to the cost of the unit as we'll gladly pay it", and most of us would. BUT.... think back on all the other things we've talked (and complained about), like better mattresses, furniture, refrigerators, furnaces, LED lights, "G" rated tires, disc brakes, independent suspension, etc., etc.,. Pretty soon the cost of the rigs balloons from around $80,000 MSRP to $120,000 - and someone will still want something more.

Note at nowhere in this post did I say was against fixing this problem, only stating why it may never get resolved at the factory level.

The Japanese auto manufactures have a practice where each engineer periodically has to spend a few months working on the factory floor, assembling the product. It would be great if the RV industry adopted this philosophy, and extended it to working at various dealers in the repair area too.

[richfaa]

Conversations with Keystone on our repeated tanks failures are at an end. We are on our own which is IMO the only way to get the issues corrected properly.

[richfaa]

Just made a appointment for May 4th when we get back to Ohio with our dealer for tanks repairs whatever they may be. It is on us.

[catskiner]

You might try going with a different tank manufacturer.

[richfaa]

The tank vendor provides tanks for many brands. We have been to the vendor plant. The problem seems to be primarily on Keystone products. Did Keystone get a batch of bad tanks or are they improperly installed.

[Gcasta]

Do not have a problem with my holding tanks right now but wanted to get an idea of how the flexible drain coupling is done in case I might need to do it in the future. Does anyone have a picture of a flexible coupling setup for the drain lines?
Where would the best place be to get the parts to do this?

[DQDick]

Don't have a picture, but a flexible pipe joiner is available anywhere plumbing supplies are sold.