My Truck On LSD - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

Charlie · 05-22-2006, 06:22 AM

I was filling up at a Wal-Mart this past weekend when the attendant was
putting a warning sticker on the pumps about the ULSD. The only problem was
she was putting it on the gasoline side of the pump. When I asked her why about the placement of the sticker....her reply was "That is where I was told to put it".

Montana Sky · 05-24-2006, 08:17 PM

Well doesnt that just say it all... "I am just doing what I am told" I would sure look for different company to purchase my fuel from.

sreigle · 05-27-2006, 08:15 PM

So, if I pull into a station with Montana in tow and the low fuel light glaring at me and see a sticker saying the diesel is of the ultra low sulfur persuasion, can I go ahead and use that fuel without damage to the engine or do I need to buy some additive of some sort to add to the tank? I'd like to know the answer before that happens to me. Does anyone know?

richfaa · 05-28-2006, 02:44 AM

Steve..this might give you a clue http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ftp-ep/pub...bles/Fuels.pdf

The paragraph "other issues" is of interest.

lightningjack11 · 05-28-2006, 04:09 AM

Steve,

From what I read about this it is very confusing but the bottom line is 2007 diesels will be required to run on ULSD or damage will occur. Our trucks should run on both. As they take the sulfur out they will put lubrication additives in to compensate. At what point along the delivery track they do this I am not sure.

here is a good site that gives the timetables and has a FAQ section.

http://www.clean-diesel.org/highway.html

I have been montoring the performance of my 7.3 for quite a while and one thing for sure is something has changed. My truck has consistantly got 17-19 around Spring Hill for years. Now I am finding I am getting 19-21 and I don't know why. Is it the Fuel??
I thought the milage was supposed to go down?

Check all the pump stickers after the first of the month.

lightningjack11 · 05-28-2006, 04:30 AM

Reading the linked chart I get the following. (Except for Calif that has to be 100%ULSD by 9/1/06)

1. Diesel pumps must be labeled as type of fuel by June 1st
2. Retail outlets have a choice between now and 2010 to carry LSD or ULSD. Look at the label. (retail outlets do not have to carry ULSD during this period)
3. All Diesel must be ULSD by 12/01/10...(no more LSD)

That is, if I read the charts right.

So Steve, since retail outlets have to 2010 to convert to 100%ULSD you will still see a lot of LSD out there. Watch the lablels and try to make your truck last. I think the new 2007 models are going to have problems finding the ULSD for a year or so.................Time will tell...who knows.

Here's the link for the pump labels you will see.

http://api-ep.api.org/publications/i...02000000000000

richfaa · 05-28-2006, 05:03 AM

What we have been told the ULSD in diesel and the Alcohol in Gas will/should cause a reduction in efficiency. We have been told as little as 10/15% to as much as 30%. Time will tell. In the new diesel motors there is a device that collects the soots and burns them.When the temps are not high enough to burn them like on idle or when cold, fuel is injected into the device and ignited .That fuel is not being used to run the truck and will account for some of the lower fuel milage.. I have got the feeling we are in for a shock very soon..

sreigle · 05-28-2006, 06:34 AM

Thanks to both of you. This is good information. When in one location for awhile we can get to know which stations carry which. It will be tougher on the road when we pull into a station and find a label that is not what we want and either have to pull out with house in tow and spend time and fight traffic finding another station that may have the same label, or not. Or maybe it's the only station within site. I am not looking forward to dealing with this but I will have to do so. I guess I need to stock in some additives to have on hand. Thanks again. Great info.

lightningjack11 · 05-28-2006, 10:00 AM

Steve

If I pull into a station with nothing but ULSD then I will just put in enough to get me to the next station.

It will be very interesting to see what developes especially for the members that purchase 2007 models. Just filled up with LSD(500ppm) and it states do not use in 2007 models.

It is a long time til 2010 when all they will have is ULSD.

ols1932 · 05-28-2006, 12:45 PM

I use Lucas Fuel Treatment in my truck. Have 136,000 miles on it and believe the additive is doing what it is designed to do. I've always been concerned about the lower sulfur content in the diesel fuels being placed on the market.

Orv

indy roadrunner · 05-28-2006, 01:45 PM

Folks I just returned from a trip to Florida. What is interesting is a couple of the BP stations I passed has 2 diesel signs up with no prices under them. Out of curosity I asked why the two signs - get this - the reply was that in June they will be carrying two types of diesel, LSD and USLD and there would be a price difference.
Here we go again!!!!!!!

lightningjack11 · 05-28-2006, 04:35 PM

Thanks for the report Phil.

Bill Frisbee · 05-29-2006, 03:35 PM

The following was received from Chrysler Canada via the Service Manager at my dealer. It has information re Canada and US. May be helpful

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the response that was sent to Howie from our fuel engineer in Windsor.

The situation is almost the same Canada and the U.S. for the implementation of ULSD and Chrysler product roll-out.

- Canada will introduced ULSD (S15) October 2006 the same as the US, although Canada is to be 100% ULSD at retail (except 1 year later in Far North). U.S. may have LSD (S500) at some pumps but will phase-out over several years.
- Older diesels compatible with ULSD.
- Lubricity is being addressed by Oil companies through ASTM, CGSB, and own in-house quality controls.

- I don't believe the engine companies have advised of changes to maintenance / oil requirements on older engines. Maybe something to pursue with Cummins. New units will have oil and maintenance schedules defined - see owner's manuals.

I've asked at CTC if there is a Q&A being developed for ULSD and Chrysler products. I'll keep you posted.

Hope this helps for now.

b

Montana Sky · 05-29-2006, 08:08 PM

Alright I saw the first sticker on the fuel pump today at the local Flying J. It read "Fuel pumped out of this pump is set for low sulfer diesel. Should not be used in 2007 vehicles and later. Use of this fuel will cause damage to your vehicles motor." My question is this, "what does 2007 and later mean"? Is later; 2008, 2009, 2010? or 2006, 2005, 2004?? I wanted to go in and get answers, but they were slammed. Hopefully next trip to the station I will get an answer.

JH Sechelt · 05-29-2006, 08:47 PM

Montana Sky,

Later is 2008, 2009, 2010, Etc.......
Sounds like older trucks will run on the new fuel, but 2007 and after will not run on the older style of Diesel.
This page might help, I'm not too sure how good the new fuel is for older engines ?????

http://www.chevron.com/products/prod.../ulsd.shtml#A9

J&D

Bill Frisbee · 05-30-2006, 02:00 AM

I think John is right on the mark. As I posted above, Canada is going 100% to ULSD in October, 2006. At that time, there will obviously be few (if any) of the new diesel engines on the road. Clearly, the ULSD being pumped in October will have to be compatible with the existing "old" diesels. According to the information provided by Chrysler Canada, the additives necessary to make the ULSD useable by existing diesels will be added by the oil companies.

Bill

richfaa · 05-30-2006, 03:05 AM

Remember that the 07 model year actually begins around July 2006.

lightningjack11 · 05-30-2006, 04:40 AM

On 09/01/06 Calif will be 100% ULSD.

For the rest of the states retail outlets can handle LSD until Dec 2010. After that all road diesel will be ULSD. Refineries are requried to be 100% ULSD six months prior to Dec 2010.

I think what will happen is some stations will handle both during the transistion period while other will handle one or the other. Indy roadrunner posting shows that some are ready to hanldle both.

If you plan on buying a 2007 Diesel I suggest you wait until you see what the availability of ULSD is going to be. It will probably take some time for the conversion.

Montana Sky · 05-30-2006, 05:22 AM

J&D,
Thanks for a great link. I figured "later" meant 2007 and 2008... Was talking with a neighbor last night and was telling him about it, he thought "later" meant 2006, 2005... Well I guess I will just keep on filling and enjoying the drive. =)

Bill Frisbee · 06-01-2006, 11:35 AM

The following is from the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

website for the whole report can be found at

http://www.cppi.ca/ULSD_Q_A_s.html
.................................................. ...............

Q17. How will ULSD affect the operations of the existing fleet?

A: Engine and vehicle manufacturers expect ULSD to be fully compatible with the existing fleet and are not anticipating that current owners will have to make any changes to their equipment to operate with the new fuel.

Past ULSD-test fleet studies showed some fuel system leaks, but they are believed to be due to the specific test fuels that may differ from the ULSD entering the market this year. This effect is similar to that seen during the transition from high sulphur diesel to low sulphur diesel in 1993, but that transition changed the fuel chemistry to a much greater degree than the upcoming introduction of ULSD. Since the fuel formula change to ULSD is likely to be, comparatively, very small and since fleet seals should have been adapted long ago, any impact on seals during the transition to ULSD is expected to be extremely low, if it occurs at all. The most vulnerable vehicles are probably older (pre-1993), high mileage vehicles with original seals still in place. These vehicles may require preventive maintenance in the form of upgrading certain engine and fuel system seals. Maintenance records should be reviewed to ensure that fuel system seals have been changed with recommended materials at recommended intervals. Check with your dealer or the vehicle manufacturer for additional information. One of the reasons for this fact sheet is to encourage truck fleets to be aware of potential issues before the introduction of ULSD.

The transition to ULSD may dislodge some deposits from the tank and create a need to change fuel filters ahead of their regularly scheduled maintenance. In addition, filters on storage tanks or dispenser pumps may also require filter changes during the initial introduction of ULSD.

Like LSD, ULSD requires good lubricity and corrosion inhibitors to prevent unacceptable engine wear. When necessary, as with LSD, additives to increase lubricity and inhibit corrosion will be added to ULSD prior to its retail sale. With these additives, ULSD will perform as well, or better than, LSD for preserving engine life and maximizing intervals between oil changes in the existing fleet.

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