Montana's Plight - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

padredw · 12-11-2004, 03:58 PM

This has been an excellent thread, especially in regard to respect for the observations made in good faith by all who have participated. My observation about my own experience which follows is not only about this thread, but in regard to similar topics on this forum. I can hardly believe my good fortune in that I have had only one problem of any significance. I have mentioned that in some earlier posts, but to put it briefly, the rubber "gasket" at the bottom of the bedroom slide was "balling up" on one end and, in fact, about 3 or 4 inches was hanging loose on the very first time we extended it. As far as I can tell, there was never any 'functional' problem caused by this, but I was distressed that a new RV had this defect. After several attempts, we have a 98% resolution and do not consider it a continuing problem. Our good fortune is all the more auspicious when it is known that we bought our Montana within hours after we first saw it on a dealer's lot in Panama City, Florida and drove it home here to East Texas the next day. In May, 2005 we will have had this RV for three years, have traveled from Colorado, to Kentucky, to South Carolina, to Florida and points between several times and it looks and functions just like it did the day we bought it (actually better since we mostly fixed that one problem). When I compare our experiece to many I have read about here, I am almost afraid that our good luck cannnot hold out -- something might go wrong. I hope this fear is merely superstition.

Edited. Just to add that we have towed our present RV/TV team over 24,000 miles. We are not full timers, but enjoy traveling. Click the link below to see this fine pair!

aljolleyjr · 12-12-2004, 02:46 AM

rames14: Excellant post. Wouldn't it be exciting to watch if Toyota were to build a plant right next to Keystone and start building fifth wheels.

lightningjack11 · 12-12-2004, 04:26 AM

Good point. That is one way to fix an industry that needs repair.

sreigle · 12-12-2004, 03:58 PM

I agree. There are some excellent posts in this thread. I can only hope Keystone is reading this one.

exfuzz02 · 12-14-2004, 11:13 AM

It does'nt seem to matter what price you pay for an RV...Expensive ones or middle of the road...you can get a lemon with any of them..I think you need to investigate your dealer prior to purchase and find out what kind of record they have dealing with their customers.

lightningjack11 · 12-14-2004, 11:32 AM

True,just look in the Good Sam Forum and you find lots of tire wear and axle problems. Even the Dexters bend.

rames14 · 12-20-2004, 01:02 AM

It will take something significant - like a Toyota - for the RV industry to see the light. I have had feelers from at least one RV manufacturer that is looking at a Six Sigma initiative. If one company starts a CEO driven Six Sigma program, the other manufacturers are in trouble. Six Sigma was started by Motorola and adopted by Allied Signal, GE (read Jack Welch's book), and many others - including some hospitals. It is a very structured approach that focuses on showing statistically significant improvement in customer satisfaction, waste reduction and quality. Unfortunately, it is very expensive to get started (my training was about $40k)but it pays back huge dividends. The idea is to get to 3 defects per million opportunities. One of our plants is at 1 defect per million at their customers, and all of our plants are much lower. In the auto industry, they used to use % defective, now its PPM and will probably get to PPB (parts per billion). I would even be willing to help Montana for free if they had a specific problem to work on, but they rely strictly on experienced operators for quality. The idea of craftsmen went away because you couldn't maintain the quality level at high volume. As a tool and die maker by training, it is easy to see why - everyone does things a little differently - leading to different results each time.

lightningjack11 · 12-20-2004, 02:32 AM

Sounds like you know where it is at rames.

After World War II the United States introduced the Quality Circle to Japan in manufacturing. Then they ate our lunch with it. Sounds like you guys are trying for the next level. Hope it comes through so good luck. The RV Industry needs a big boost. Right now the industry is getting so bad that it is headed to Federal controls in a few years. Just my opinion. Their errors can probably be measured in parts per 100 rather than ppm.

Random Line · 12-20-2004, 07:42 AM

[quote]Originally posted by lightningjack11

Sounds like you know where it is at rames.

After World War II the United States introduced the Quality Circle to Japan in manufacturing.
-----------------------------------

You have identified 1/2 of the problem anyway. Right now demand is way up, Montana is competitive on price, has effective advertising it's and management is still shaking down start up problems. What happens next will be interesting as competition increases and the RV boom turns into an echo. A Toyota Fifth Wheel plant along Industrial Row in Goshen would be a wonderfull educational institution.

The other half of the problem is that these things arn't designed for full time use or the use that they are getting. They don't claim to be. But many of us use them that way.

Water lines that freeze are not designed not to freeze in northern climates etc.

I guess a lot of thinking about design needs to be done by both the manufacturers and the owners of these things.

I'll start right now.

sreigle · 12-20-2004, 01:58 PM

Don't forget the impact of a potential "Thor Factor." Sometimes I wonder if we're not already seeing a little of that.

Montana_2608 · 12-20-2004, 02:26 PM

Good post Random Line. However, I personally don't think the problems being experienced by those on the forums I have been reading has anything to do with the units being built for occasional or full time use, or how much they are being used. It seems the problems are found in late model to brand new RVs. I see little if any problems related to mileage/useage issues, with the exception of the axle problems that seems to have recently been narrowed down to the axles being too small for the units they are installed on, for which to my line of thinking, there is no excuse. It's possible to buy a lemon every now and then and I know not all RVs of any brand are having problems. It just seems from the many comments made that problems are to be expected in RVs when you buy a new one and will have to be fixed by the dealer. I think that should not be the case. I have put myself in the shoes of some of these new RV customers and have really been surprised in the damaging types of problems experienced, not to mention the sometimes shoddy repairs made by dealers. The best fix for these problems is to eliminate them during the construction phase of the product. Plain and simple. I also wonder how much use of an RV would be too much? I sure hope the manufacturers don't put a limit on how many miles or nights I can stay in a vehicle I paid $55,000 to own. That would be similar to an auto manufacturer designating how many miles I am allowed to drive my truck each year. I know if my truck is well cared for, it will last for quite a few years and will experience little if any problems, compared to what was expected in the past. I remember when you were lucky to get 100,000 miles out of an automobile and now you don't even change spark plugs until then. Properly cared for, most autos will get 200,000 + miles now. I know the more miles I put on my truck the lower the resale value and the shorter lifespan of the vehicle, but it in no way determines how many problems I should expect to have with it in the beginning or otherwise. My opinion is the results of huge demand are rushed schedules and deadlines, long hours for employees, poor overall workmanship in the product, lower profits for the manufacturer due to a growing number of manufacturer related problems to be dealt with by customers and dealers of the products. I feel it's time we all raise and voice our expectations for our right to a quality, problem free product at the time of delivery. This would increase quality and extend the life of our RVs as well. Overall, the RV industry should look at some of these previous comments concerning quality conrol, take some of the 20% to 30% profit growth for the past 3 or 4 years and increase product quality instead of building more plants to do it "the same old way", and getting the "same old results" which seems to be the case.

lightningjack11 · 12-21-2004, 04:09 AM

My Montana dealer said that usually the new rigs are kits that have to be completed by the dealer. I used to assume that was a joke. They don't handle the Montana line anymore.

I like my Monty because it has given me little trouble. But I drive 60-65 on interstates and even slower in heavy traffic. I also drive no more that 325 a day to keep stess levels down. I have seen these big trailers go by me at 75-80 mph and I wonder if they can hold up. I know of people that will drive these big things over 500 a day. I guess I am venting a little so I apologize.

sreigle · 12-21-2004, 12:57 PM

Tom, when we were vacationing we used to do 300 to 500 per day, occasionally more, just to maximize our time at our destination. That means we were always running 65-70. But after fulltiming for awhile we discovered 60-62 is a very nice speed and it doesn't take that much longer to get to our daily destination. And we shoot for 200-250 miles per day. Rarely do we do more than that and frequently we do less. Life is more enjoyable at a slower pace, or so we've learned.

lightningjack11 · 12-21-2004, 02:08 PM

Steve, Might feel a little different if I were younger and still in the workforce with limited vacation time. I know my reaction time is not as good so I have to slow down.

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