D3500 for 3400? - Page 3 - Montana Owners Club

Tom_Holsinger · 07-10-2010, 04:56 PM

Posting your TV is one thing. Posting your TV and stating on-line that you are concerned that it might not have the capacity to safely tow your RV is quite another, and that is what set off Lawman and I. Use of a TV with an inadequate capacity is at worst negligence. Knowing use of an inadequate TV might result in a punitive damages claim and worse, your own insurance company denying both your claim and coverage for the other side's losses.

Given the vast increase in RV recreation coming as Baby Boomers retire, it would not be surprising if the RV insurance industry creates underwriting standards for premiums based on RV gross loaded weight versus TV capacity.

IndyRoadrunner - not all RV moving accidents result in the RV being totalled and, when they are. attorneys can figure out its weight from things like the RV owner's loss of personal property insurance claim, etc.

richfaa · 07-10-2010, 05:33 PM

It is a tangled web and there is much we do not understand but attorneys do. Unlike some others I think most attorneys are pretty smart fellows and understand the legal system far better than I do So I tend to listen closely when they give advise.

Tom_Holsinger · 07-11-2010, 12:11 PM

Rich, an argument has been made on-line that medium-duty trucks are required to haul 5th wheels in the Montana weight class - see TOWING A HEAVY FIVER at http://www.rversonline.org/ArtMediumDuty.html. It seems to be based on an assumption that only trucks whose brakes are capable of stopping both the TV and RV combined, in case of RV brake failure, should tow RV's. That seems to be an extreme position among the many on-line opinions I've read on the subject.

There does seem to be a consensus that, given that loaded Montanas, including their hitches, weigh about 15,000 - 17,000 pounds, their tow vehicles should be at least one-ton diesel DRW pickups in the 350/3500 series of Fords, Dodges and GM's. Note though, that the GCVR ratings of those trucks are in the 22,000 - 23,500 pound range. This indicates a possibility that even such trucks are marginal TV's for Montanas.

I haven't retired yet, but it's coming up and I intend to become a part-time RV'r at that point, most likely with a Montana as the High Country model looks mighty attractive. Technological developments in progress look pretty good for a continuing matchup of one-ton pickups and 5th wheels in the Montana class. The latest edition of the Economist has an article about BMW of Germany developing a means of producing vehicle frames using carbon fiber which, if it can be used for RV frames, looks easily capable of shaving 1,000+ pounds from a 30'+ long 5th wheel, and almost as much from a one-ton pickup.

blarkman · 07-11-2010, 12:57 PM

A very very good article, I think some of us understand what is being said and others will still have their head stuck in the sand,"that doesn't apply to me!!!"

Lawman · 07-11-2010, 01:00 PM

One of my concerns on the forum is that a great many new RVers come here asking for advice. Anybody can give any advice, and, if a poster says his 3/4 ton is fine, the new RVer is apt to think why pay more for a dually if a 3/4 is "fine." Actually, that's bad advice since no truck of that size can tow a Montana and remain within the manufacturer's specs. Those driving 3/4 ton trucks and wish to tell the world how wonderful their vehicles tow, should add the caveat that his/her vehicle exceeds the manufacturer's limits. At least the new buyer would know what he/she is getting, and have all the facts.

ONERUNNING · 07-11-2010, 04:14 PM

As the threads keep coming in on Dave's post, I feel I'm the one that stirred up the hornet's nest, by making the comment, I'm pulling my 3400RL with a 3/4 ton Chevy Duramax SRW, and it pulls great. Now I have found out that I'm way over manufacturer's specs , and should have never made that comment. I realize ignorance is no excuse, and I deeply apologize for any wrong information that I put out. I did not intend to do so by any means. It didn't take long for someone to send me a private message, and jump my bones for saying what I said. In my reply back to him, I told him that I was going by what the dealer had told me after he looking it up in a book he had, and the way I understood the owners maunal on my truck. Also, after talking with many Montana owners that were pulling with 3/4 ton trucks. Again, a big miss understanding on my part, and a lesson well learned. Now I'm torn between looking for a lighter RV or a bigger TV! Again, I apologize for any wrong info. I guess this is all part of being new to the RVing world.

richfaa · 07-12-2010, 04:57 AM

These weights and ratings and spec's are hard to understand and take a lot of homework and education. The last place to get data to make a decision on is any forum such as this. The only way to know what the real weights are is to weigh the units. One spec' that is often overlooked is the tire load rating. You may have 7K axles but tires rated at 3042lbs.'In terms of the brake issue described above. That is a "point" used by the MDT and HDT folks to justify the purchase of a MDT/HDT truck. If the Manufacturer states their product has a GCWR of 23,500lbs I can not believe that their legal staff would allow them to design a truck/braking system that would not stop that weight within predetermined parameters.. These ratings and spec's are a statement by the manufacturer as to the capabilities of their product and they are clearly stated. I think a good attorney could do a good job of defending that..so I have been advised. Our problem is understand the many spec's and their relationship to one another.

I am no expert but have been involved in aircraft incidents involving equipment and the "tolerances" (ratings and spec's) was law. Humm. As a matter of fact I was a expert as my job involved... "testifying as a expert" I did not like that but that's the way it was.

We all take risks in many ways but I would like to take risk based on valid and verified data.

blarkman · 07-12-2010, 06:24 AM

Ya Rich, how many times has someone said, Don't worry they don't stand a chance!!! OK so in theory my Mission ST tires are rated at 3520 each so in theory I can carry 14000 but my axles are rated as 5200 each. something does not compute.

CamillaMichael · 07-12-2010, 07:33 AM

The concept of designating "one ton," "3/4 ton," and "1/2" ton pickups is pretty much outdated...or at least that is what I have read online. I do not claim to be an expert on those designations, and do not care to be. In trying to understand the capacity of any particular truck, with more than one configuration, there is naturally some confusion. To say that YOU NEED four tires on the back of your truck to tow a Montana 3400RL is misguided. There is much more to a truck than the number of tires is has. As I have already pointed out, I almost got stung when we were about to buy a Ford F350 DRW truck. As it turned out, with just the small gas V8 engine, it just did not have to ability to tow a Montana fifth wheel...even though it had a lot of tires. Also as I have already stated, and stand by, I have weighed and computed capacities (while I am not a truck expert, I am very capable in mathematics) for my truck (F350 SRW TD LB) and my 3400RL and keep coming up below each stated capacity. So yes, I am the proud owner of a SRW pickup, which pulls my 3400RL quite well, thank you very much.

TLightning · 07-12-2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by blarkman

Ya Rich, how many times has someone said, Don't worry they don't stand a chance!!! OK so in theory my Mission ST tires are rated at 3520 each so in theory I can carry 14000 but my axles are rated as 5200 each. something does not compute.

It means you are limited by the lower capacity of the two items. In your example above, you are limited by the 5,200# axles. If you had 8,000# axles you'd be limited by the 7,040# rating of the two tires. Anyother thing to remember is that about 20% of the 14,000# noted above (assuming it's the GW) will be pin weight carried in the truck, and not by the axles.

blarkman · 07-12-2010, 08:33 AM

I was just trying to clarify a point. You can read or interpret figures in different ways. I also was looking at a dually but after reading TL yearly booklet regarding pro and con on 4x4,SRW vs DRW I came to conclusion that I did not need a 4x4 or dually as DW did not want that big an RV, smart woman!!
bob

CamillaMichael · 07-12-2010, 08:51 AM

Just for grins, I looked at one of the manufacturer's websites (Chevy) to pick out some capacities on DRW pickups. In this case, the 3500 Duramax. Seems this vehicle has a GVWR 100 lbs less than my SRW pickup...how can that be so? The site also states this truck has a "Max Trailer" capacity of 13,000 lbs...again, a lot less than my SRW. The issue in both cases, as I have attempted to note in this thread, is that all of the numbers for a specific truck (not a whole brand/class) have to be examined. In doing so, it would appear that, in addition to 2,000 lbs, or less, max trailer capacity, what the DRW Chevy 3500 (2010 and older) "brings to the table" over my SRW pickup, is A LOT more payload capacity. However, some of that payload capacity is lost when computing GCWR for any particular truck/fifth wheel combo. Do some DRW pickups have more capacity than some SRW pickups? Of course! Are all SRW pickups incapable of safely towing, within specs, Montana fifth wheels? Of course not! I have all the towing capacity I currently need...all within specs. If I needed more, I would look at a DRW pickup, because some (not all) do have more towing/carrying capacity.

richfaa · 07-12-2010, 10:30 AM

barkman..there is no interpretation of those numbers as Tom Pointed out. You are limited by the lower number. That some folks do not understand that IS the problem.
True trucks are different. Our 08 F-350 Ford has a GVWR of 13K another may be different. we have a Cargo capacity of 4268. The real weight of the truck is 9215lbs leaving a real CC of 3787 lbs. The pin weight on our 06 3400 as weighed by RVSEF in Sept of 09 was 2915 lbs Leaving us under specs by 873 lbs.There is no interpretation of those numbers..they are real.

Michael. I would assume that your Ford SRW Ford weighs much less than our 08 dually. I also assume that you have looked at the GVWR of your truck and the stated Cargo capacity, That you have weighed the truck ready to tow and also know the real pin weight of the 3400. That you have subtracted the real weight of your truck from the stated GVWR, know the real Cargo capacity and it is more than the real pin weight of the 3400. If so you are good..no arguements. Since you stated that you have run those numbers and you are good there is no arguements here. I do not know your numbers so I have nothing to say.

Tom_Holsinger · 07-12-2010, 12:13 PM

Here is a useful web site for rating tow vehicles versus rv's - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-vehicle-sizing.shtml

Its links are especially helpful. Here are the opening paragraph and first few paragraphs of definitions:

Tow Vehicle Sizing
Proper sizing of the tow vehicle is a critical component of safe RV towing. Most often this vehicle is a full size pickup truck, but properly equipped cars, vans, SUV's, and even large motorcycles, are capable of towing small trailers.

On this page we provide the steps for determining the vehicle ratings for safe trailer towing. By "safe" we mean that none of the weight ratings of the tow vehicle have been exceeded.

Not only should the ratings be strictly adhered to, it is advisable to leave a safety margin. The amount of safety margin varies with the person suggesting it, but a commonly agreed upon minimum is 20%.

Important Ratings
Each vehicle has numerous weight ratings, or restrictions, as determined by the manufacturer. When towing, we are not only concerned about the vehicle and cargo weight, but also the additional weight that the trailer will place upon the vehicle.

Before we look at the methods for determining the tow vehicle ratings, let's look at some weight definitions:

GVW
Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is the actual weight of the fully loaded vehicle, including all cargo, fluids, passengers, and optional equipment, as measured by a scale. GVW is determined by weighing the entire vehicle, without the trailer attached.

GVWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is the maximum number that the GVW should never exceed. In other words, this is the most that the tow vehicle should weigh.

RGAW
Rear Gross Axle Weight (RGAW) is the actual weight placed on the rear axle. Assuming a well-balanced vehicle, the RGAW is evenly distributed to all tires on that axle. RGAW is determined by weighing all wheels on the rear axle, without the trailer attached.

RGAWR
Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) is the maximum number that the RGAW should never exceed. In other words, this is the most weight that the tow vehicle's rear axle should carry.

GCWR
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) is the maximum number that the tow vehicle GVW plus the trailer GVW (or GTW) should never exceed. In other words, this is the most that the entire recreational vehicle should weigh. This includes the tow vehicle, trailer, anything towed behind the trailer, and everything inside and on top.

Maximum Tongue Weight or King Pin Weight
The Maximum Tongue Weight (for travel trailers) and Maximum King Pin Weight (for fifth wheels) is the most weight that should be pressing down vertically on the tow vehicle hitch.

Maximum Trailer Weight
Maximum Trailer Weight is the heaviest trailer that the vehicle should tow, as determined by the manufacturer.

Hitch Rating
Hitch Rating is the most weight that a hitch can support vertically or pulling horizontally. This rating may be specified by the vehicle manufacturer and the hitch manufacturer—if they are different, use the smaller number. For ball mount hitches, this rating refers to the weight pressing down vertically. For fifth wheel hitches, this rating refers to the entire weight of the trailer.

blarkman · 07-13-2010, 05:12 AM

Dave; I do want to thank you for your post about this issue on 3/4vs1ton and single and dually. hopefully it opened some eyes and got some people thinking. It blowws my mind that we can put tile on floors heavy counters and such but do nothings to improve the braking ie disc brakes, lousy shackles and such. Is safer that low a priority??
bob

CamillaMichael · 07-13-2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

barkman..there is no interpretation of those numbers as Tom Pointed out. You are limited by the lower number. That some folks do not understand that IS the problem.
True trucks are different. Our 08 F-350 Ford has a GVWR of 13K another may be different. we have a Cargo capacity of 4268. The real weight of the truck is 9215lbs leaving a real CC of 3787 lbs. The pin weight on our 06 3400 as weighed by RVSEF in Sept of 09 was 2915 lbs Leaving us under specs by 873 lbs.There is no interpretation of those numbers..they are real.

Michael. I would assume that your Ford SRW Ford weighs much less than our 08 dually. I also assume that you have looked at the GVWR of your truck and the stated Cargo capacity, That you have weighed the truck ready to tow and also know the real pin weight of the 3400. That you have subtracted the real weight of your truck from the stated GVWR, know the real Cargo capacity and it is more than the real pin weight of the 3400. If so you are good..no arguements. Since you stated that you have run those numbers and you are good there is no arguements here. I do not know your numbers so I have nothing to say.

Rich, while the DRW Ford F350 (if fully ready for towing) has the GVWR of 13,000 lbs, the extra body weight of the TV eats into that figure (as you well know) leaving you with about the same residual (800-900) as I have with my SRW Ford F350...with "only" 11,500 GVWR, my truck is lighter than the DRW, so much of the 1,500 lbs available to the DRW is taken up by the truck's own weight results in virtually no difference! However, having said that, I believe that the heavier TV makes for a more stable towing situation. The relationship between the weight of the TV and the weight of the trailer being towed is a significant factor when looking for a stable tow...in my opinion. And as it turns out, my SRW truck is heavier than a lot of DRW pickups on the market. Does not do much for better MPG, but helps to prevent the tail wagging the dog.

Tom_Holsinger · 07-13-2010, 08:51 AM

Camilla, TV length is also a factor in stability. A short bed pickup with a sliding hitch might be able to tow a 5th wheel RV, but a long bed pickup is almost always preferable.

CamillaMichael · 07-13-2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Holsinger

Camilla, TV length is also a factor in stability. A short bed pickup with a sliding hitch might be able to tow a 5th wheel RV, but a long bed pickup is almost always preferable.

Agree...Michael

richfaa · 07-13-2010, 10:52 AM

My truck weighed 8650 out the door and 9215 ready to tow. Do you know what those numbers are on your truck Michael... I can not see a 2011 F-350 SRW under build your own truck, CC/LB/4X4 that will come in under spec. The pin weight is always light??? We tried our best to go SWD 2011 with no luck... What amd I missing.... As I have said many times we are not fans of the dually but the numbers said we had to have one.

Tom_Holsinger · 07-13-2010, 11:00 AM

Here is one way to compare TV capacity with RV weight.

Tow vehicle: 2010 Dodge RAM 3500, 6.7 liter Cummins diesel and 4.10 axle ratio, Laramie, long bed crew cab, DRW. Curb weight of 7,471 pounds and GVW of 11,500 per http://autos.aol.com/cars-Dodge-Ram+3500-2010/specs/

Make that an actual vehicle weight of at least 8,200 pounds with 5th wheel hitch, bed saver, passengers and some luggage.

The Dodge Heavy Duty specifications found by clicking on the bottom right corner button at the Dodge RAM page here - http://www.dodge.com/en/2010/ram_2500_3500/ - states the following maximum trailer weights, and Gross Combined Weight (GCWR) for this model as:

24,000 pounds GCRW (25,400 late availability with a special tow package), and maximum trailer weight of 18,050 pounds.

Keystone’s Montana page gives the following specifications for a Montana 3615RE:

Shipping weight of 12,165 pounds, cargo weight of 3,380 pounds and a hitch weight of 2,045 pounds. That totals 15,545 pounds for the RV and 17,590 pounds for the RV + hitch.

A long-bed Dodge 3500 diesel dually has a maximum trailer weight of 18,050 pounds, so it looks as though the maximum Montana 3615RE trailer weight is within its limits, particularly as some of the weight will be carried by the truck.

BUT, the combined gross vehicle weight of the Dodge 3500 as loaded, plus the Montana 3615RE and its hitch is 8,200 + 15,545 + 2,025 = 25,700 pounds, which exceeds the Dodge’s 24,000 GCRW , and even its late availability rating of 25,400.

This is why I stated earlier that even one ton diesel dually pickup trucks are at best marginally capable of towing the larger Montanas. Contrast this, though, with the Montana High Country 343RL whose gross weight is 12,500 pounds with a 1,740 pound hitch. That totals 14,240 pounds so it plus the same loaded Dodge diesel dually total 22,440 pounds, which is almost 10% under the latter’s 24,000 pound GCRW.

I meant it in earlier urging Keystone to give a bonus to the marketing guys responsible for the High Country models. Those are long-term winners.

You may also like: