FACTORY TOUR

[awaywego]

Someone posted some pictures of a factory tour last week and they had photos of some being made and some outside parked. I do not remember who had the post and I cannot find it with search. The new ones outside of the factory had gray caps on the front. Anyone know where the post went?

[bigmurf]

http://eilean350.blogspot.com/?m=0

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

I believe the ones with the "gray" front are all Mountaineers.

[Gkerlin]

The original post was mine. It was simply a post here on the MOC with a link to my blog where I posted about our factory visit.

I never got the straight scoop but it appears that some undisclosed MOC Member complained that I had posted unauthorized photos -or some such nonsense. (Thanks for that by the way)

What they (the snitch) never bothered to check with me was that I had asked our tour guide if I could take pictures before I took them, and had received permission, and thought some folks on the MOC would find it interesting to see the tour. How thoughtless of me.

Regardless - in response to the complaint about my blog, my post, with the link to my blog was taken down in the middle of the night by some unseen force with the power of the mouse. I was never consulted btw.

Of course my blog still contained the post of the tour and all the photos - but whoever deleted my post on the MOC simply denied fellow MOC'ers the ability to see my blog. The rest of the world could see it.... Strange.

I found it interesting that someone in the MOC was afraid that I was revealing industrial secrets yet all the competition needs to do is sign up and take the tour themselves if they want to see what's going on inside the plant. The tour is run weekly and is open to the public.

[awaywego]

Thanks to all for the replys

[Emmel]

Gkerlin,
During the meet and greet, I, as the tour coordinator, told, not ask, everyone that wanted to take pictures to not post any on the MOC forum. What you do on your blog is your own decision. The tour guide that allowed you to take the pics was right in doing so. Keystone lets everyone take pics as you tour the factory, but they prefer us not to publicize any pics of the promo models, so we ask that no one publish any pics on the forum.
Now, I did not see your pics and I didn't know anyone had posted any until I just now read your post. I don't know who took them down or "snitched" on you, but remember, everyone was told not to post any factory pics at all.
I did read your blog and thought the pics were nothing to worry about, but if you are allowed to post some, then the next guy will also and then the next thing you know, the promos will be slipped in. I'm just trying to explain why the moderators probably removed your post.

[Gkerlin]

"Not to pile on here..." Then the pile gets a bit deeper.

I just want to clarify something here and then I'm done with this subject.

First: To be precise- I asked if ""I could take some pictures for my blog"" and the answer was "yes take as many as you like" no restrictions were suggested. One would reasonably assume that if the factory rep said it was ok - it was ok. My Bad.

Second: I did not hear a prohibition mentioned at the meet and greet and no mention was made of a prohibition in the Rally Booklet. At the meet and greet it was pretty hard to hear all the announcements as everyone kept talking while all the announcements were going on. Plus - as a first time rally attendee I made the mistake of volunteering and was selling raffle tickets all during the meet and greet (and other events) rather than sitting, listening, and learning all the rules. Again - My Bad.

And the post did disappear "in the middle of the night" so that's why I used that term.

The OP was looking for the post, couldn't find it with a search, and asked where it went so I merely was telling him where it went.

[Emmel]

Greg,
As we said, you were allowed to take pics for your personal use. But, in the past, we had pics show up here with the new features that the dealers had not seen yet and they were taken off right away.
As for the instructions at the meet and greet, not only did I say it, but Jim also reiterated the same.
Now, I'm very happy that you volunteered and that you are a first timer, but the decision to sell tickets during announcements was something to be looked at for the next rally. Not your problem.
Thank you for your help in every way.

[awaywego]

I am truly sorry for getting this going in the direction it is going. I did not see anything in the photos that I consider trade secrets and I was thinking the photos were from a factory tour prior to the rally.
Again I did not realize there would be such a problem over the photos.
End of subject for me!

[twindman]

To Awaywego: Not to get WAY off subject, but what do you have against Wisconsin? It looks so lonesome on your state map.
Did you actually visit all the little states out East? I got most of them, but still have MA and Rhode Island to go.

[awaywego]

Tom, I have nothing against Wisconsin, but I thought I would save the best for last.
This way I have something left in my bucket list to do.

[Irlpguy]

I find the manner in which this situation has been handled to be very disturbing.

I saw the original post by Gkerlin and went to his blog and viewed the photo's. This is kind of cool to some of us who, because of where we live will never visit the factory and assembly line and appreciate the opportunity to see this aspect of the manufacturing process through the eye's of those who have visited.

I do not think for one moment Keystone are conducting tours through sensitive area's whereby pictures could be taken of anything secretive or sensitive. If that is correct along with the fact that Gkerlin asked the tour guide permission to take the photo's for his blog, begs the question as to why the Moderator felt the need to remove the post.

There were no pictures posted directly in this forum, Gkerlin sought and was given permission to use the pictures. An unidentified moderator saw fit to remove the post in it's entirety without the courtesy of contacting Gkerlin prior to doing so. That is not moderating, that is censorship and an abuse of the moderators position.

I am glad to see there is a link on this thread to those same pictures and would suggest someone needs to step up and apologize to Gkerlin for the way this was handled. If Keystone do not want certain pictures posted to the internet, then they should not allow camera's in that specific area.

I thank Gkerlin for posting the pictures in his blog and hope other MOC members will not feel censored to the point they cannot post their own assembly line pictures for some of us non attendees to see.

Moderation on any forum is sometimes needed, censorship should neither be allowed nor practiced here or anywhere.

[richfaa]

How do things get so twisted.. Pictures IN THE FACTORY during the factory tour are allowed. I took dozens my self and do every year. Pictures of Units on the line during the factory tour are ARE ALLOWED. We have been asked over the years NOT to take pictures of the prototypes OUTSIDE the factory as many of them have not been seen by anyone dealers or otherwise and are there for input from MOC members at the rally and on the tour. They simply do not want pictures of prototypes on the forum before the dealers see them and some of these prototypes change before production. .I say again these prototypes are on display at the factory for MOC members only.

That information was stated many times during the rally on the forum and at the tours. Ok so someone did not get the word. It happens. It was taken down by the administrators for the reasons stated. ONCE again.....ASSEMBLY LINE PICTURES ARE ALLOWED. TAKING PICTURES ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE IS FINE....

PICTURES OF THE PROTOTYPES OUTSIDE THE FACTORY ARE NOT ALLOWED...Only MOC members at the rally see those prototypes and provide feedback.

[The Oldguard]

How do things get so twisted.. Pictures IN THE FACTORY during the factory tour are allowed. I took dozens my self and do every year. Pictures of Units on the line during the factory tour are ARE ALLOWED. We have been asked over the years NOT to take pictures of the prototypes OUTSIDE the factory as many of them have not been seen by anyone dealers or otherwise and are there for input from MOC members at the rally and on the tour. They simply do not want pictures of prototypes on the forum before the dealers see them and some of these prototypes change before production. .I say again these prototypes are on display at the factory for MOC members only.

Rich, all of the dealers are shown all of the prototypes the week prior to the rally. Both the owner and service manager from "Tacoma RV" do this every year that I know of from 2003

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

Color me confused.

I thought that in years past some of the prototypes we saw were shown to us before ANY dealers. We were told, the dealers have NOT seen these and will not until the Louisville show. The Louisville show, I thought was AFTER our Rally????

That is why we have been asked to NOT show PROTOTYPES, furniture and rigs.

I think it was the year the air mattress couch was introduced we were told we were the first to see that prototype, no dealer had seen it. Within hours of the plant tour a photo of it showed up here on the forum, after we were specifically asked during the tour NOT to post it. Ooops.

I know the last few years there has been a show or open house here in Elkhart County the week or so before our Rally. I never knew about this Open House till last year. Was it always here?? WOW, I really do live in a cloud. SIGHHH

So easy to misunderstand, no wonder I am almost always befuddled and confused.

[Irlpguy]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa


That information was stated many times during the rally on the forum and at the tours. Ok so someone did not get the word. It happens. It was taken down by the administrators for the reasons stated. ONCE again.....ASSEMBLY LINE PICTURES ARE ALLOWED. TAKING PICTURES ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE IS FINE....

PICTURES OF THE PROTOTYPES OUTSIDE THE FACTORY ARE NOT ALLOWED...Only MOC members at the rally see those prototypes and provide feedback.

Richfa I think you are wrong, Gkerlin got the word, directly from the tour guide that it was ok to take the pictures for his blog. This appears to me to be more an issue of someone being punished for not following the MOC rules/instructions as opposed to being an issue with respect to any problems with Keystones wishes.

The moderator who removed the post did not in any way indicate the pictures in question contained ones of prototypes and for that reason should not have been posted. "There was no explanation presented by that moderator".

Everyone is quick to jump on Gkerlin and emphatically restate the MOC instructions and yet the link to the pictures is still here as it was in the beginning.

Richfa your last sentence enforces in my mind the elitism that appears to exist in the MOC and gives those of us who cannot attend these rallies the feeling of being second class members. Who knows, Keystone might value the opinion/input of the thousands of Montana owners that for whatever reason cannot attend this rally and view their prototypes or offer input on other aspects of the Montana.

I assume Gkerlin is a MOC member in good standing, he posted no pictures to the forum, he had permission to use them in his blog. Instead of continuing to berate him someone should be man enough to apologize to him.

[Artemus Gordon]

So how was the tour? Look we all know the "Manhatten Project" was not secure. If in fact Montana has developed "Anti Gravity" 8 point leveling, such secrets are kept behind closed doors. That said I hear the option is set for late fall debut! Well that's what I heard. I toured secure plants, all photos equipment and cameras are taken prior to tour. They Thor have no control over what you do after you leave the plant. if they had secrets, I am sure they were behind the curtain with Mr. OZ. I saw nothing Earth shattering. Thanks for sharing!

[richfaa]

Richfa your last sentence enforces in my mind the elitism that appears to exist in the MOC and gives those of us who cannot attend these rallies the feeling of being second class members. Who knows, Keystone might value the opinion/input of the thousands of Montana owners that for whatever reason cannot attend this rally and view their prototypes or offer input on other aspects of the Montana.

It is not elitism anyone can go to the fall rally or any rally. The members at the fall rally can see and comment on new models and provide input on all issues because we are HERE and we are representative of Montana owners. The plants are here. The keystone execs are here. MOC members are here and we are asked our input on Montana issues. keystone will be here today for a open forum asking out input on all things Montana.. because we are here and we are Montana owners.

we have always been told by Keystone that there are prototypes here that NO dealer has seen. So now we are told that is a lie by a members who knows better. I will bring that to Keystones attention today . I have no problems taking pictures of prototypes I do every year. I have never put them on the forum because we were asked not to.

We looked at the blog. There is only one picture taken outside and no indication that they are prototypes . They look like any Montana. Most of the changes are interior or a all new model number.

It appears that one member was told they could take pictures and all others were told they could not. We will ask the question. The one picture in the blog outside does not identify the Montana's as prototypes. No damage done.

[Irlpguy]

I will make one more comment on this unfortunate matter and then say no more.

It appears these pictures were posted in a link on Sept 26 by another member of the MOC. I would say they are the same pictures of the same RV's as the one picture posted by Gkerlin : http://s461.photobucket.com/user/MOC...tml?sort=3&o=2

I am having a very hard time understanding why it was ok for these ones to be posted with no deletion of the post when they were posted several days before the link to Gkerlin's blog was posted.

There certainly appears to be a double standard as far as posting pictures is concerned by MOC members. Obviously more than one person was given permission to post their pictures.

Most disturbing to me is how this was handled, how it continued to evolve and now appears will end with no apology to Gkerlin and no explanation to the rest of the MOC forum readers as to why it happened.

"No damage done" - Wrong, damage was done, but it was not to Keystone. I think this is a pretty sad story.

[bncinwv]

Doesn't make a difference as to when, why or how. The forum is not member owned, it is privately owned and moderated as such. The owner(s) and moderator(s) do not owe anyone an explanation, however in the past, when I have had posts removed, there was usually an e-mail sent to provide some sort of explanation so that I knew what to not do to avoid the next hand-slapping. I, for one, appreciate the format and moderator control that is exercised, that is what makes the MOC preferable to other RV'ing forums! I look at the forum as a privilege, not a right, and understand that fully and treat it as such. It is still the best RV related forum on the WWW!!!
Bingo