Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > MOC Technical Forums > Montana Problems, Problem Solving & Technical Help
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-14-2018, 06:03 PM   #21
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
The 128 sec delay is inherent to the TRC surge guard, didn't know that.



 
__________________
SOB
2015 Volvo VNL780 D13, iShift, 32k ET air hitch, Idle Free LiFePO4 APU
16.8KWhr LiFePO4, 2.52 kw solar, 10kva Victron split phase
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 07:25 PM   #22
mchurch314
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22121
I made one of these using the same type of plug. T only difference was the wire that I used to do the jump wasn’t solid copper wire, it was 12 gauge but it was braided wire maybe that’s why mine didn’t work. Do you have any thoughts on this? Thanks!
mchurch314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 07:28 PM   #23
Texan
Montana Master
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: new caney
Posts: 1,050
M.O.C. #19873
This is what happens when you buy a quality generator. I have a Generac and have no problem running 1 or 2 a/c's at the same time. With my 2,000 watt Honda i had to put my progressive ems on bypass and plug in a jumper plug. With no ems and plugging in a jumper plug it should work ok. You can't buy a better generator than Honda.
Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 07:44 PM   #24
mchurch314
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22121
Unfortunately, swapping out my EMS is a big deal. I was hoping for another solution. Maybe using a solid 12 gauge copper wire (as opposed to a 12 gauge braided wire) will work. If anyone knows why that would make a difference, let me know. Thanks!
mchurch314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 08:26 PM   #25
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchurch314 View Post
Unfortunately, swapping out my EMS is a big deal. I was hoping for another solution. Maybe using a solid 12 gauge copper wire (as opposed to a 12 gauge braided wire) will work. If anyone knows why that would make a difference, let me know. Thanks!



Stranded or solid wire won't have any impact as long as you have a solid connection. If you got continuity between the ground and neutral male prongs on the plug with a multimeter you should be good to go. I don't own a generator of the model you are using. If there are breakers for each of the outlets make sure they are on and not tripped. I cannot think of any other reason the strapped plug should not provide a bonded jumper that the TRC can see.
__________________
SOB
2015 Volvo VNL780 D13, iShift, 32k ET air hitch, Idle Free LiFePO4 APU
16.8KWhr LiFePO4, 2.52 kw solar, 10kva Victron split phase
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 08:52 PM   #26
mchurch314
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22121
I’ll check the breakers tomorrow. Thanks for the idea!
mchurch314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 09:43 AM   #27
JPSimmons
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Olympia
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #18675
You should only use a portable generator that has a bonded neutral for supply to an RV. The National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that the RV have a neutral that is "floating" in the rig. So, to have a ground-fault return path, the neutral must be bonded to the frame of the generator.
A grounding electrode is NOT required for the portable generator. However, GFCIs and grounding type receptacles and grounds for appliances and equipment cannot function if there is no neutral bond at the generator.
JPSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 10:00 AM   #28
JPSimmons
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Olympia
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #18675
Sorry man, the better approach is to contact the manufacturer of the generator and find out how to do the neutral-to-ground bond inside the generator.
A portable generator that has a bonded neutral should be used to power lights, appliances, equipment and RVs.
(In the electrical industry, we refer these type of neutral-to-ground jumpers as "false-grounds" or "phantom-grounds". Though you prove your "jumper method" works, doing this is really a violation of the National Electrical Code.)
JPSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 10:19 AM   #29
twindman
Montana Master
 
twindman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa az
Posts: 2,920
M.O.C. #5651
From what I have read the external plug to fix the ground problem works well. Unfortunately for me, I hadn't read about this when I got a generator. So I spoke to the store owner that sold it to me and he guided me thru moving a wire inside the genny. It works fine ever since. But it was a bit of a pain to do this. A plug would have been much easier.
__________________

Tom and Gail
2013 Mountaineer 362
2012 Silverado 2500
twindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 10:23 AM   #30
AZ Traveler
Site Team
 
AZ Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Oro Valley
Posts: 3,891
M.O.C. #20477
Quote:
Originally Posted by twindman View Post
From what I have read the external plug to fix the ground problem works well. Unfortunately for me, I hadn't read about this when I got a generator. So I spoke to the store owner that sold it to me and he guided me thru moving a wire inside the genny. It works fine ever since. But it was a bit of a pain to do this. A plug would have been much easier.
Seems to me the easiest fix is to not use your EMS when running off your genny.
__________________
Zack and Donna plus Millie and Ranger
2018 3160RL

"Life is too short to stay indoors, enjoy the ride!"
AZ Traveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 11:10 AM   #31
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
The bonded plug is an easy fix. The issue is really the EMS. If the EMS had a bypass the issue would not occur.

With respect to the NEC, I am not sure THIS issue is covered by art. 551 (other areas still apply) less it were a permanently installed generator.
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 11:13 AM   #32
mchurch314
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22121
*Update*

The new bonding plug I made works. The SurgeGuard EMS no longer detects an open ground. So here's the skinny, one Honda 2200EU will NOT run one AC but two running in parallel will run one or BOTH AC units. Was hoping ot would be one for one but happy now that I have a solution!!
mchurch314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 11:55 AM   #33
JPSimmons
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Olympia
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #18675
Response to PNWFireguy: Let me assure you that other sections of the NEC do apply and prohibit what you are recommending. (By the way, I have served for many years on the NEC committee that writes the rules for grounding and bonding (Article 250). I also served as Chairman of the Committee of the NEC that writes Article 551 that regulates RVs.)
For example, try NEC 250.24 (A)(5), 250.140 and 250.142. There is a very good safety reason the neutral "floats" in the RV and the neutral needs to be bonded in the portable generator.
JPSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 12:00 PM   #34
h2ojocky
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Rancho Santa Margarita
Posts: 633
M.O.C. #13025
Mchurch314, per micro air easy start you should be able to run a 15K A/C on one Honda 2200. If you turn off the breaker for your converter/battery charger and run your fridge on propane and water heater on propane you should be able to run it one one genny.
__________________
Russ and Linda, So. California
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD, D/A, SRW, SB
2005 2955RL, Pullrite Superglide 16K hitch. Bridgestone Duravis R500 tires. EZ Flex Equilizers with wet bolts.EMS HW50C, Disk brakes
h2ojocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 01:03 PM   #35
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSimmons View Post
Response to PNWFireguy: Let me assure you that other sections of the NEC do apply and prohibit what you are recommending. (By the way, I have served for many years on the NEC committee that writes the rules for grounding and bonding (Article 250). I also served as Chairman of the Committee of the NEC that writes Article 551 that regulates RVs.)
For example, try NEC 250.24 (A)(5), 250.140 and 250.142. There is a very good safety reason the neutral "floats" in the RV and the neutral needs to be bonded in the portable generator.

Not sure what the point is of assuring me of something I already said was the case in my post. Yes I agreed that there were multiple other articles within the NEC that applied to this scenario. That said however 551 does not apply as the reasoning for bonding the neutral of a portable generator backfeeding and RV. That's all. Please don't take it as a verbal assault of you or your earlier post.


mchurch there is other evidence, including that from Micro-Air directly, that a single Honda eu2000 will start and run a 15k AC unit with the Easy Start installed. It is only the starting or locked rotor current that prevents the AC from starting on that generator without the Easy Sart. The running current is within the Honda's rated capacity.

Based upon your updated information it appears something was amiss with regards to the original bonded plug. Based upon that and your findings that you need two eu2000's to run the single AC unit if it were me I would reset the ES and perform the 5 starts on shore power again to re-train the ES. Then try the single Honda again. Just my .02
__________________
SOB
2015 Volvo VNL780 D13, iShift, 32k ET air hitch, Idle Free LiFePO4 APU
16.8KWhr LiFePO4, 2.52 kw solar, 10kva Victron split phase
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 02:30 PM   #36
mchurch314
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22121
Someone else mentioned retraining the EMS in an earlier post. Since this is a new unit I'll wait and see what happens after we use Shore power 5 or more times. Maybe the Honda will work with just one generator and one AC. I certainly hope so.
mchurch314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 02:41 PM   #37
PNW Fireguy
Montana Master
 
PNW Fireguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Arlington
Posts: 1,522
M.O.C. #18081
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchurch314 View Post
Someone else mentioned retraining the EMS in an earlier post. Since this is a new unit I'll wait and see what happens after we use Shore power 5 or more times. Maybe the Honda will work with just one generator and one AC. I certainly hope so.

That was me. You have to follow a specific process to reset the ES. Check your instructions or the website if you did not retain them.


Relearn:
If a compressor, start capacitor, or run capacitor is replaced, place a jumper on pins 4 and 6 as shown. Cycle power on then off again
and replace the jumper in the “Normal” position.
Follow step 13 of the retrofit instructions to complete the relearn process
__________________
SOB
2015 Volvo VNL780 D13, iShift, 32k ET air hitch, Idle Free LiFePO4 APU
16.8KWhr LiFePO4, 2.52 kw solar, 10kva Victron split phase
PNW Fireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ac unit, honda generator, soft start

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.