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Old 02-12-2015, 04:31 AM   #1
cwalker
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RV Employees Using RVs-Article in RV Business Mag

Jason Lippert, CEO of Lippert Components Inc., an employer of 6,000 based in the northern Indiana RV-building center of Elkhart, Ind., thinks that the RV industry would greatly benefit from companies involving more key employees in first-hand RV experiences by making available loaner units. You can read the article at:
http://www.rvbusiness.com/2015/02/op...try-challenge/
I think it's a great idea. Maybe if the employees (all of them) actually used the units they design and make they wouldn't do dumb things (IMO) like in the new units putting the washer dryer in the closet where you have to climb in the closet to open the washer door. It's an interesting article.
 
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:36 AM   #2
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The RV manufacturer I worked for would make 1 of every model we built available for employee use for up to 2 weeks. Feed back was encouraged. I don't know if they still do that
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:17 PM   #3
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Keystone used to do something similar, but the units they have out there are generally the ones that made it to being a prototype, but never made it into production.
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:58 PM   #4
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I think we all can agree this would help to improve the functional aspects of many floor plans.

For example, today we were finally able to tour the "new" 3611 floor plan which was basically like our early 3610 but with a few improvements??? and the addition of a residential fridge.

Something that really hit us as we did a complete walk around was going down the hall to the bedroom and turning left to enter the bathroom. Our early 3610 has just a few inches more length to it and the bathroom door opens fully IN to the potty without actually hitting to toilet. With these newly designed plans(side isle I guess) the door now opens out in to the hall and one needs to partially enter through the bedroom door to manoeuvre around the opening of the door.

So if we have company, our bedroom door is closed at night and how does the company get around the bathroom door without opening our bedroom door to get past it first?

Maybe it's just us because we feel ours is a better way but if more input was readily accepted by Keystone they could find a better way.

As well as a four time Montana owner our input has never been solicited for some reason???
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by DarMar

I think we all can agree this would help to improve the functional aspects of many floor plans.

For example, today we were finally able to tour the "new" 3611 floor plan which was basically like our early 3610 but with a few improvements??? and the addition of a residential fridge.

Something that really hit us as we did a complete walk around was going down the hall to the bedroom and turning left to enter the bathroom. Our early 3610 has just a few inches more length to it and the bathroom door opens fully IN to the potty without actually hitting to toilet. With these newly designed plans(side isle I guess) the door now opens out in to the hall and one needs to partially enter through the bedroom door to manoeuvre around the opening of the door.

So if we have company, our bedroom door is closed at night and how does the company get around the bathroom door without opening our bedroom door to get past it first?

Maybe it's just us because we feel ours is a better way but if more input was readily accepted by Keystone they could find a better way.

As well as a four time Montana owner our input has never been solicited for some reason???

Actually, Montana does solicit input from owners. They do it every year at the Fall Rally, and they also watch this board. There have been several changes made based on what members here have reported, both at the rally and posted here.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:58 AM   #6
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DarMar - we looked at the 3611 also before recent purchase. DW and I looked at each other in amazement and couldn't believe they designed the door that way. Did no one in the design process point out what you and I noticed? What in the world were they thinking? That is the most awkward set up I've ever seen. One thing I noticed so far about my SOB is that company reps are very active on the owner's forum. In fact, one of them actually spends a lot of time in a "loaner rig" and is very familiar with what owners are talking about/complaining about/lauding etc. Whether or not that equates to better design and quality is still TBD as I have not picked it up yet! In all my years here I can only think of a time or two where a Keystone rep has appeared on this forum.
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:15 AM   #7
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IMHO, they should not only "make them available" for employees, they should make it mandatory for the design engineers to stay in one for a week. Then they might do a better job.
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:33 PM   #8
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I've seen this topic come up recently in other threads. I just saw a video that seems to answer this issue of the employees using the units they make. This video is from the Cougar plant but it sounds like a Keystone thing...you decide. Employees stays start at about 12:45 into this video.


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Old 01-27-2020, 04:24 PM   #9
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Maybe the sales people should do the same so they know what they are talking about. Lol.
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Old 01-27-2020, 05:37 PM   #10
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Thanks great video. It sounds like they do use their products and the employees who can’t afford to buy can still have the use of the product they make. I suspect a lot of the people building them are young and can’t afford to buy. We are lucky to have the means to buy a $80,000 camper and 60,000 truck to pull it. Most people can’t do that. My parents couldn’t afford all the things I have. They could only afford an old car with holes rusted in it. We all should be very thankful.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:20 AM   #11
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Isn't this the same group that brought us the Quality Assurance video?
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Old 01-28-2020, 06:35 AM   #12
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still ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffba View Post
Isn't this the same group that brought us the Quality Assurance video?
You mean like the $70,000.00 dollar camper I bought the light switch for the bedroom is around the corner and 3 feet down the wall from the entrance door.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I've seen this topic come up recently in other threads. I just saw a video that seems to answer this issue of the employees using the units they make. This video is from the Cougar plant but it sounds like a Keystone thing...you decide. Employees stays start at about 12:45 into this video.


I watched the video - The reference to employee's using was mentioned, as commented. As usual, the devil is in the details. Do they really get the enough time to completely understand "FULL USE?" Or is it just one night or what?

Possible "The Company" could set up a campground where the employees has to break camp, move it (drive around campus) and back it back into another spot, set up, live in it two nights, break camp, drive around campus … True they'd need a little over site to avoid major mistakes. But it would be more that the typical "Oh, here is your unit for two nights."

Indeed, some of the above is ASUMPTION due to lack of knowledge.

Yes, I think Montana and High Country have made big strides in the last two years since I've been on the MOC Forum. I think many of the longer members could attest. But as most there is always room for growth.

IMHO - food for thought
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:30 PM   #14
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I watched the video and if it is true that the designers and engineers are staying in these units and they still are making the stupid mistakes that are easy to correct but then they don't.......that speaks volumes for the "get them out the door as fast as possible mentality".




It was fairly obvious to me when touring the factories that it is all about how many they could build and how cheap they could make them. Quality and good design are a very distant second to that. Only time they care about anything to do with design is when it will help SELL the product so they can keep building them!!!


Again I'm not talking about the big stuff they get wrong, that's a whole other animal. I just can't belive they won't fix little VERY OBVIOUS stuff, like the head banger doors and double latches that require you to drop what you are carrying. You know the things that anyone actually using all the normal features would realize immediately and say "what were they thinking when the built this??? The things that could actually be fixed very easily and with no additional or very minimal cost.


Yeah SOME of the employees might spend a night or two in the rigs when they are already setup but they sure as heck are NOT using them like they own them (like storing stuff in the storage compartments, setting them up and such.


Storage compartment brings up another prime example. Why on earth would you make a storage compartment that is 18" tall with a door that is only 12" tall?????? Stupid just stupid!!!


Stop trying to defend the indefensible!!!!


They make very basic stupid design mistakes and are not correcting them at anywhere near the speed at which they should! They might listen to the very small percentage of people that attend the rally but I have NEVER seen a questionnaire going out that actually asks for constructive criticism. The BEST thing they could do is REQUIRE that engineers and designers take turns calling owners and asking them for their thoughts for improvements. Ask the owner to develop a list, give them a week then call them back. Then IMMEDIATELY fix things on the assembly line that can be...........


I guess the biggest problem is that the actual owners are NOT the manufacturers customers, the dealers are. And the dealers don't care as long as they can still sell them.........and blame the manufacturer for any shortcomings!!
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:37 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mtlakejim View Post
I watched the video and if it is true that the designers and engineers are staying in these units and they still are making the stupid mistakes that are easy to correct but then they don't.......that speaks volumes for the "get them out the door as fast as possible mentality".




It was fairly obvious to me when touring the factories that it is all about how many they could build and how cheap they could make them. Quality and good design are a very distant second to that. Only time they care about anything to do with design is when it will help SELL the product so they can keep building them!!!


Again I'm not talking about the big stuff they get wrong, that's a whole other animal. I just can't belive they won't fix little VERY OBVIOUS stuff, like the head banger doors and double latches that require you to drop what you are carrying. You know the things that anyone actually using all the normal features would realize immediately and say "what were they thinking when the built this??? The things that could actually be fixed very easily and with no additional or very minimal cost.


Yeah SOME of the employees might spend a night or two in the rigs when they are already setup but they sure as heck are NOT using them like they own them (like storing stuff in the storage compartments, setting them up and such.


Storage compartment brings up another prime example. Why on earth would you make a storage compartment that is 18" tall with a door that is only 12" tall?????? Stupid just stupid!!!


Stop trying to defend the indefensible!!!!

Ever wonder id they'd dare have around table with users? Not to draw blood but learn what the some of the thoughts are.

Head banger doors is a good start.

If you've every been in a World Class Plant transition - more could be done better - faster and less expensively
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:15 AM   #16
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I like the idea of the employees of manufacturers getting first hand experience in their products. Even more so the employees of the dealers from sales to service techs should be getting experiences too. because they are the frontline to buyers.
some of the sales folks we have talked to can't even spell RV, so we avoided those people.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:47 AM   #17
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I like the idea of the employees of manufacturers getting first hand experience in their products. Even more so the employees of the dealers from sales to service techs should be getting experiences too. because they are the frontline to buyers.
some of the sales folks we have talked to can't even spell RV, so we avoided those people.
Dealers could use trade in units for employee use
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:48 AM   #18
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Dealers could use trade in units for employee use
Maybe Tiara (RV Dealer) would consider using trade ins for Montana employee / their sales people …
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:06 AM   #19
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Who knows what real benefit comes from employees using their own products. The production floor folks, or even the sales people, certainly don't have the ability to make on-the-fly changes regardless of what they discover in using the rigs. I would imagine that any changes to be made would be at a mid-year or new year model revision at the soonest. There are far too many pre-planned, pre-built, and pre-staged moving parts to make changes willy-nilly.

My guess is that as they receive constructive input from end users or their own people that any and all changes would go through a pretty strict review and design audit before any implementation would happen.

If Keystone is, in fact, paying attention to input like this forum then keep the ideas coming. Maybe we'll see some of them adopted in a year or two...or whatever the cycle is.


Edit: Perhaps what we need in this forum is a specific thread for making suggested changes. If Keystone is monitoring then making it easier for them to find might prove beneficial. Something like "Montana - suggested changes" or something like that. The thread wouldn't be for whining about what we don't like but rather a positive, constructive suggestion box for improving the user experience.
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