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Old 08-27-2013, 04:56 PM   #21
Irlpguy
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dsprik wrote:
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My 2013 GMC 3500HD SRW states GVWR at 11,700#, but the actual truck weight is not stated. I guess a trip (with the truck only) to the weight scales loaded how I travel and a full tank of diesel is in order and probably better anyway. I'll keep the scale paperwork in my glove box. I would think that would be considered official? My 2007 3400 pin weight changes every trip to FL and then back to MI, but it runs around 2,200#. So if my truck weighs under 9,500#, I should be good.
Dave I cannot question your GVWR figure although I could find no specs on line for a 2013 with that amount .

I am curious about the pin weight, the 2007 Keystone specs list the dry pin weight at 2000 lbs. You have a second AC and list a generator which if loaded in the gen compartment, combined with your normal travel load would suggest you would have a fair bit more than 2200 lbs on the pin. My DW carries 200 lbs of clothing alone...LOL. My 2012 - 3402RL with no front AC and no Generator with few canned goods and some grocery supplies has a pin weight listed at 2300 lbs but actually weighed it at 2800 lbs.

I am also curious as to how you determined the pin weight if you did not previously know the weight of the truck alone.

My 2012 Dodge 3500 dually ready to roll weighed in at 8885 lbs, I don't think yours will weigh that much as I was packing my generator and a fair amount of tools in it, if it does not, you should be ok on the weight of the truck.

My suggestion would be to weigh the trailer axles when loaded as well to be sure they are not overweight.

psomers, the sad thing is the dealer made the sale without ensuring the purchaser had sufficient truck to pull the trailer in the first place. He would certainly be aware that the purchaser would be pulling it with his F250 once out of sight. He really did not do the purchaser any favors, but he got the sale and the sales commission and that is all that mattered to him.



 
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:51 AM   #22
NCFischers
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All that dealer could do is insure that the trailer was being towed by a vehicle designed for the weight when it left the lot. The dealer has absolutely no control over what anyone does after they leave. Stating that the sales commission was all that mattered to him is unfair. What is he supposed to do, follow him home and make sure he doesn't tow with the wrong truck?
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:04 AM   #23
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As more and more folks pull these heavier and heavier fivers with undercapacity trucks, we may soon find ourselves required to be in line with the truckers at weigh stations. I have been pulled over twice, once in California, once in Texas, as spotchecks of non-commerical vehicles was being conducted.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:51 AM   #24
richfaa
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"The dealer refused to let them drive the Fusion off the lot. The couple was going to borrow a friend's F350 to get Fusion off lot."

Proves some dealers wont accept the liability of overloading."

In my opinion it should be a requirement that dealers can not sell a Rv to a buyer that Does not have a truck that meets the spec's... buy a smaller Rv
I know from our experience in selling Rv's at Rv shows for several years that most Rv buyers have little or no understanding of weights and specs and when given the proper information will re think the purchase.

I also question the loaded pin weight of 2200lbs on Daves 2007 3400.It may be a typo. I know how he travels and he basically has the same Montana as my previous 06 3400. His Generator, same as mine is in the back of the truck. My guess is he will be at @ 2700 lbs.

We have not yet had the opportunity to weigh the 13 3402 Big Sky but will at the Fall rally. My guess is that it would be & 2700/2800 lbs and am encouraged by the weights on your 2012 3402. We did a serious lighten up project on our 06 after the first weigh in and did the same when transferring "stuff " to this 13 3402. We do have plenty of CC left over.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:43 AM   #25
Irlpguy
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NCFishers wrote:
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All that dealer could do is insure that the trailer was being towed by a vehicle designed for the weight when it left the lot. The dealer has absolutely no control over what anyone does after they leave. Stating that the sales commission was all that mattered to him is unfair. What is he supposed to do, follow him home and make sure he doesn't tow with the wrong truck?
If the post reporting this event is accurate, then the purchaser was there with his F250 when the deal was made. At what point might we expect the dealer to ask the question "What will you be towing the trailer with". To also point out the "legal" ramifications to the purchaser of pulling his new unit with a truck that will obviously be overloaded.

It is not unfair in my mind that the dealer inform the purchaser of the towing requirements up front before completing the sale. As I said the dealer did no favors to the purchaser or anyone else who is unfortunate enough to travel on the same roads as this fellow.

Prospective buyers should be fully informed on towing requirements when they are at the dealer, particularly if they are first time buyers. We know that it is rare that a dealer concerns himself with what the prospective buyer will be towing with. When that changes there will be fewer people looking for answers in the forums after the fact.

On a similar subject, while I was at the Goodyear tire store yesterday a chap came in with a large toy hauler, it was equipped with 7000 lb axles and he wanted LT tires installed to replace the Marathons that were on it. The dealer refused to sell him the tires stating that it is illegal to reduce the capacity of an axle by putting tires on it that are not equal to or greater than the axle capacity. The owner was ****** and left saying he would get them somewhere else. I respect that dealer for what he did and it also points out something we might not have been aware of with respect to tire/axle capacities.
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:14 AM   #26
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As more and more folks pull these heavier and heavier fivers with undercapacity trucks, we may soon find ourselves required to be in line with the truckers at weigh stations. I have been pulled over twice, once in California, once in Texas, as spotchecks of non-commerical vehicles was being conducted."

I do agree that this will happen with non commercial vehicles as the States realize how many $$$ can be made from Overweight Rv's

Organizations that weigh Rv's such as RVSEF can document that 60% or better of rv's they weighed were over weight in one or more categories. I also agree that the dealer did all they could in that particular case other than refusing to sell the Rv to the buyer in the first place. I am sure their action was on the advice of their insurance company same as the Goodyear dealer as I do not think there is any law to regulate this in that area.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:38 AM   #27
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Richfa wrote:
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I do not think there is any law to regulate this in that area
I have been able to find regulations in several Provinces that address this Axle/Tire issue specifically and the Boat Trailer Manufactures Assn website refers to certain US Federal laws regarding this as well. You might want to ask Keystone why they reduced the GAWR on their sticker to 6750 lbs from the 7000 lb axle supplied by Dexter. You might also ask them if they can legally put LT tires on those axles effectively reducing the axles capacity. I think I know what the answer will be.

Here is a question asked and the answer on the BTBA website:

QUESTION:
How do I know I have the proper sized tires on my trailer?

ANSWER:
Look at the VIN / Certification label on the front left side of the trailer. This will have the proper tire size, and inflation pressure, printed on it. You can check this by looking at the Maximum Load Rating stamped on the sidewall of the tire. This load rating (when multiplied by 2 - for the 2 tires on the axle) must be equal to, or greater than, the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) printed on the VIN / Certification label.

When we traded in our TT for our first 5er the dealer told us he would not sell us the larger one we wanted unless we upgraded our truck, we bought a smaller 5er based on his advise. It "is" about the sale and doing the right thing, our salesman made a sale and we were legal when we left the yard. Good for him.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:47 AM   #28
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I do know that Canada has different requirements. The Montana's on the line that are being built for Canada have a Maple Leaf sticker on them. I seem to remember that the 6750lb axle spec was a Canadian spec . Good questions tho. The axle rating on my 13 3402 reads 7K.I am thinking that yours in Canada reads different. I will day that when we were selling these things at Rv shows I would not sell one to a customer if his TV was not within spec's.the customer would of course go over to the next isle and try again. That is why I never took up selling Rv's as a full time job.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:24 PM   #29
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Rich the axle rating on my 3402RL is 7k as well, what I am referring to is the sticker on the front left corner of the unit that legally "must" be placed there by the manufacturer. That on my unit is where it states the GAWR is 6750 lbs. They have to do that in order to comply with regulations that make it illegal to reduce the axle rating by installing tires, rims or springs that are not equal to or greater than the axle rating of 7k. The standard issue tire is a Marathon or some other ST tire rated at 3420 lbs, that is less than the capacity of the axles that are rated for 7k combined with the two 3500 lb springs certify it as a 7k axle. The certification mandatory on the trailer as I understand it "cannot" be greater than the lesser component in the equation, in this case it is the tires.

If they used a "G" rated tire they would not have to reduce the GAWR down to meet the capacity of the tires. I believe the only requirement in Canada is the CSA certification on equipment installed in the unit. A 7k axle in the US is still a 7k axle in Canada, a tire DOT rated for 3420 lbs is the same in both countries. Ask Keystone the question, but don't expect to get the proper answer from just anyone there.....


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Old 08-28-2013, 02:51 PM   #30
richfaa
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[quote]Originally posted by Irlpguy

Rich the axle rating on my 3402RL is 7k as well, what I am referring to is the sticker on the front left corner of the unit that legally "must" be placed there by the manufacturer. That on my unit is where it states the GAWR is 6750 lbs. They have to do that in order to comply with regulations that make it illegal to reduce the axle rating by installing tires, rims or springs that are not equal to or greater than the axle rating of 7k. The standard issue tire is a Marathon or some other ST tire rated at 3420 lbs, that is less than the capacity of the axles that are rated for 7k combined with the two 3500 lb springs certify it as a 7k axle. The certification mandatory on the trailer as I understand it "cannot" be greater than the lesser component in the equation, in this case it is the tires.

If they used a "G" rated tire they would not have to reduce the GAWR down to meet the capacity of the tires. I believe the only requirement in Canada is the CSA certification on equipment installed in the unit. A 7k axle in the US is still a 7k axle in Canada, a tire DOT rated for 3420 lbs is the same in both countries. Ask Keystone the question, but don't expect to get the proper answer from just anyone there.....



I am referring to that same sticker as well Ed. On mine it reads 7K.
not 6750. Remember my 3402 Big sky has G rated tires. I am not certain but I think the 6750 you see on your sticker is a Canadian requirement but I do not think there is any difference in the axle.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:07 PM   #31
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To get a ball park figure of the EW of the truck, subtract the cargo capacity from the GVWR...what is left is the EW. The cargo capacity can be found on the sticker on the left front of the vehicle...the Tire and Loading Information sticker.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:25 PM   #32
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Rich there is no difference with respect to the axles whether in Canada or the US. I did not realize you had "G" rated tires, since 2 of them @ 3750 lbs on one axle exceed the 7k of the axle the sticker can state a GAWR of 7k. It has nothing to do with Canada/US it has to do with the Marathon tires that are below the rating of the 7k axle. The reference I used previously to the Boat Trailer Builders Assn. was American, not Canadian.

Keystone could use the ST235/80R16 Trail America tire which is rated at 3520 and the sticker could then be at 7k since they also exceed the 7k rating of the axle. They are also a better tire.

I stopped by a SOB dealer today to look at a used truck camper, all four of their heavy model 5th wheels come standard with G rated tires. Time for Keystone to start putting the G rated tires on these bigger rigs as standard equipment, not as an option.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #33
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TLightning... EW through me off (Empty weight?). It is also called CW or UW (Curb weight or Unladen Weight). Just like the shipping weight on the trailer, the Ew (as you call it) is a bogus specification if you use documentation to calculate your CCC, because it depends on the model, and options in the truck. The only way to know the curb weight is to get to the scales with nothing in it but you and all fluids topped off including the fuel tank. This IS the EW/CW/UW. Do not rely on any brochure. Then subtract this value from the GVWR of the truck and that is the CCC (Cargo Carrying Capacity) aka Payload for your truck. Then use the FAWR, RAWR and finally the CGWR to ensure the weight is distributed correctly.

100% of the time you will find you CANNOT be at the maximums for ALL the ratings because the ratings are the maximum for a particular point. For example, my upgraded suspension truck now has a 6,000lb at the Front axle and 7,000 at the rear axle, which equals 13,000lbs, but the GVWR is only 11,500lb. This means if I am carrying 7,000 at the rear axle, I better only have 4,500 at the front axle to not exceed the overall GVWR. Then CGVWR is even worse. This is why it is said, if you are overweight anywhere, at any point, then you are overweight (not weight compliant and therefore liable in the event of a mishap).
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:23 AM   #34
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quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Rich there is no difference with respect to the axles whether in Canada or the US. I did not realize you had "G" rated tires, since 2 of them @ 3750 lbs on one axle exceed the 7k of the axle the sticker can state a GAWR of 7k. It has nothing to do with Canada/US it has to do with the Marathon tires that are below the rating of the 7k axle. The reference I used previously to the Boat Trailer Builders Assn. was American, not Canadian.

Keystone could use the ST235/80R16 Trail America tire which is rated at 3520 and the sticker could then be at 7k since they also exceed the 7k rating of the axle. They are also a better tire.

I stopped by a SOB dealer today to look at a used truck camper, all four of their heavy model 5th wheels come standard with G rated tires. Time for Keystone to start putting the G rated tires on these bigger rigs as standard equipment, not as an option.
I do agree that there is no difference in the axle usa or Canadian. Also agree on the factors that determine axle rating. However in the USA it will state 7K on that sticker, example on every 3402 Rv.In Canada it is required that the actual rating is stated. It would be interesting to see what that sticker says on an Canadian Montana Big Sky with the G6 14 tires on it.

The G6 14 ties are OEM on the Big Sky only as far as I know and NOT a option on any other model. Lock out items on a new Rv for us was the 6 point level system and the G6 14 tires. That package was more cost effective than swapping the tires after purchase.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:32 AM   #35
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I think you are right Rich, the Big Sky appears to be the only one with G614 tires as OEM. The SOB I referred to used the G rated tire on any unit over 15,000 lbs GVWR.

I would be interested in knowing what the sticker says on a 3402RL that is not a Big Sky and was purchased in the US. Also will be interested in Keystone's response to your questions regarding the lesser amount when the Marathons are used.

The SOB does not compare in other area's to the Montana, in particular the floor plans, however fit and finish on these was very good by all appearances. Would not trade the Monty though, but do think Keystone needs to address the tire situation on their heavier units.


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Old 08-29-2013, 06:13 AM   #36
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Art, did you also upgrade the axle on your '06 F250?
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:27 AM   #37
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quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

TLightning... EW through me off (Empty weight?). It is also called CW or UW (Curb weight or Unladen Weight). Just like the shipping weight on the trailer, the Ew (as you call it) is a bogus specification if you use documentation to calculate your CCC, because it depends on the model, and options in the truck. The only way to know the curb weight is to get to the scales with nothing in it but you and all fluids topped off including the fuel tank. This IS the EW/CW/UW. Do not rely on any brochure. Then subtract this value from the GVWR of the truck and that is the CCC (Cargo Carrying Capacity) aka Payload for your truck. Then use the FAWR, RAWR and finally the CGWR to ensure the weight is distributed correctly.

100% of the time you will find you CANNOT be at the maximums for ALL the ratings because the ratings are the maximum for a particular point. For example, my upgraded suspension truck now has a 6,000lb at the Front axle and 7,000 at the rear axle, which equals 13,000lbs, but the GVWR is only 11,500lb. This means if I am carrying 7,000 at the rear axle, I better only have 4,500 at the front axle to not exceed the overall GVWR. Then CGVWR is even worse. This is why it is said, if you are overweight anywhere, at any point, then you are overweight (not weight compliant and therefore liable in the event of a mishap).
Note I said "ball park figure." The cargo capacity listed on the sticker I noted is for THAT truck and it is to the nearest one pound. That's about as close as you can get for a ball park figure.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:00 AM   #38
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Fauch. For the year and model of my truck the axle was no different from what a similarly equipped F-350 has. Please take close note that I carefully described the equipment that has to be the same - F-250, Crew Cab, Long Bed, 4x4, 3.73 diff, 6.0PSD with Torqshift trans. When comparing with an F-350 with the same equipment, only the extra leaf spring, the brackets and bumpers for the spring to contact, were needed. In my case, I also had to get larger 18" wheels and tires with over 3,500 lb ratings, including the spare because my truck had 17" wheels and tires rated for an F-250 weight rating. Some F-250 trucks on the lot were found to have the spring and the larger wheels. Go figure. It's very important to compare your truck to another F-350 with the same options. Year to year this may vary, but do NOT mix model years or packages when making comparisons. Several visits to a parts department to look at drawings is definitely required. In my case, there was a drawing that showed the differences.

Hey Tom, I only wanted to clarify things more because my CCC was way off the mark in my case and while your math is correct, I wanted to point out that the brochure is NOT what you want to go by. Since my Lariat model had so much extras above a stock truck which is where brochure numbers typically come from, my truck did not meet the brochure the salesman showed me in the showroom. Even after that I added air bags and hardware, a spray in bed liner, even a fancy entertainment system and nav system with woofers, amplifiers and bigger speakers. I also added several other mods I don't care to remember, but by the time I was done I had lowered my CCC by a lot. Only a scale will give you real numbers of what your truck weighs when empty (CCC), but should include the driver and full fuel tanks. You can then see a larger driver or additional aux fuel tank can affect the remaining CCC.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:52 AM   #39
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The more terms we introduce to this business of trying to determine if we are compliant with the Maximum capacities of our TV and RV the more confusing it becomes.
We really need be concerned with a few things: If we determine the following in this order we will know all we need to know.

1) The weight of our truck with all the additions we might have made, including passengers and fuel, weighed on it's own. That will give us the GW (Gross Weight) of the truck alone.

2) The weight of the truck with the trailer attached, with the truck alone on the scale. We now have a GW (Gross Weight) of the truck and the added weight of the trailer. From this we can determine the Pin Weight and determine if we are over or under the GVWR rating of the truck as per the door sticker.

3) The weight of the trailer axles, trailer loaded and ready to go, with their axles alone on the scale. This will give us the GAW on the trailer axles. If we add the now known "Pin" weight to the GAW we know what the GTW (Gross Trailer Weight) is. We can now determine if we are over or under the GVWR of the trailer as posted on the sticker on the left front of the trailer. As well as the GAWR also posted on that sticker.

4) If you add the truck GW and the GTW together you know the GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight) If this weight and none of the others exceed the maximums known for your particular vehicles, then you can say you know for sure you are legal.

The above may require two trips to the scale but IMHO doing anything less than this is guesswork only.


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Old 08-29-2013, 12:33 PM   #40
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we made this post on another thread a couple of days ago but this is a good place to copy it. This is for the truck only and it is very simple math.

The GVWR on my F-350 listed in my sig is 13,000
The carry capacity listed on the door sticker is 4,268LBS.
The truck actually weighs ready to tow 9,100 lbs
That means my REAL carry capacity is 13,000 minus 9100=3,900 lbs
The actual pin weight on my 06 3400 and we ran heavy was 2800 lbs .
This 13 3402 is the same floor plan and configuration as the 06 3400 even so I will give it a pin weight of 3,000lbs as we have not yet weighed it but I know we are not as heavy.

that means we still have a leeway of 900lbs and that is the REAL BIG DIFFERENCE
between an 3/4 ton or one ton single wheel drive and a dually. Do the math on your truck ...the numbers can not lie.
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