Lithium upgrade

[rjlamb]

A new friend of mine purchased a 300ah lithium battery at the Quartzite rally today. He is putting it into a newer Reflection trailer. Will he need to change his convertor?

[jeffba]

What does his converter manual say?

[lightsout]

What kind of 12v Lithium is 300AH? whereas the most AH I have seen in a single Lithium 12v is 100AH. If that even exist that must be a $3-$4k Battery. Besides any charging modification with a battery that expensive and being Lithium I would add cooling (fans) to the battery compartment assuming this is an Arizona or warm climate based RV and operation in high ambient temps voids most if not all Lithium warranties..

[jeffba]

Originally Posted by lightsout

What kind of 12v Lithium is 300AH? whereas the most AH I have seen in a single Lithium 12v is 100AH. If that even exist that must be a $3-$4k Battery. Besides any charging modification with a battery that expensive and being Lithium I would add cooling (fans) to the battery compartment assuming this is an Arizona or warm climate based RV and operation in high ambient temps voids most if not all Lithium warranties..

https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb300 You were close $3488 list.
Bet there was a Rally/Quartzite discount.

Just because you have not seen something does not mean it does't exist

Why do think his friend is going to stay where it is hot?

[mlh]

Ok, I have a question for you guys that know something about lithium batteries. You can completely discharge them and only discharge a regular lead acid battery 50% with out damaging it. Do you get the same power from a 100 AH lithium as you do from a 200 AH LS battery?
Thanks Lynwood

[jeffba]

Lithium batteries can take a joke and be fully discharged without damaging them

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by jeffba

https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb300 You were close $3488 list.
Bet there was a Rally/Quartzite discount.

Just because you have not seen something does not mean it does't exist

Why do think his friend is going to stay where it is hot?

Dude what is with the sarcasm? I did not say it did not exist just asked what battery it was...

Lithium batteries can be damaged by High ambient temps as well as below freezing. If I was installing a $3500 battery I would want to make sure the battery compartment had active cooling or heating if ever used in these environments otherwise you risk significant damage not covered by warranty.

[mlh]

Does anyone know the answer to my question without the sarcasm?
Thanks Lynwood

[lightsout]

AH are AH regardless of technology (just like voltage is the same between technologies it is a standard measurement of "unit of battery energy capacity"). to get 200AH you would have to have two 100AH 12v in Parrallel then you would have 200 AH .

And yes you can fully discharge a Lithium however that lithium battery should have a mechanism that prevents it from actual full discharge, it essentially stops output at a certain point prior to full discharge to prevent full discharge that can do damage

[mlh]

I found the answer to my question.
more about the different RELiON Series of batteries.

18) Will a 12V, 100Ah lithium iron phosphate battery give a longer run time than a 12V, 100Ah lead-acid battery under the same conditions?

Yes. Lithium iron phosphate batteries provide more useable capacity than a lead-acid equivalently rated product. You can expect up to twice as much runtime.

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by mlh

I found the answer to my question.
more about the different RELiON Series of batteries.

18) Will a 12V, 100Ah lithium iron phosphate battery give a longer run time than a 12V, 100Ah lead-acid battery under the same conditions?

Yes. Lithium iron phosphate batteries provide more usable capacity than a lead-acid equivalently rated product. You can expect up to twice as much runtime.

That is easy for a seller to say (that does not exist in print) however all these batteries go through testing and certifications before they can even go to market. AH (Amp hours are a measurement of Energy based on the testing process it is not just a random number). Can AH very of course depending on type of draw and environment but that applies to all technologies of batteries.

Keep in mind two wet or AGM 6v have a rating up to 252AH for 1/3-1/2 the cost of a single 100AH Lithium. It should be noted that unless you go to 4D or 8D wet 12v typical 12v batteries are not very good deep cycle batteries. 6V in series is the wet/AGM gold standard for AH performance.

I would never buy 12V deep cycle wet or AGM they are all poor performers in terms of AH which is what really matters.

Just go by the battery actual rating and if it exceeds then bonus.

[PNW Fireguy]

I am glad that you got your answer regarding useable capacity of lithium vs flooded cells. Remember that all lithium are not the same, there are several different chemistries available on the market today. Some have even higher energy density. Lithium batteries are avaiable in a wide variety of sizes (capacity) I have 700 AH cells and 1000AH cells are also available on the market.

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

I am glad that you got your answer regarding useable capacity of lithium vs flooded cells. Remember that all lithium are not the same, there are several different chemistries available on the market today. Some have even higher energy density. Lithium batteries are avaiable in a wide variety of sizes (capacity) I have 700 AH cells and 1000AH cells are also available on the market.

Yes but the 700AH battery in not a one for one replacement with the typical 12v RV battery (most are 100ah), in fact Lithium batteries are for lack of better term modular and you can make them as big as you wish. However bigger is not really better. Like in my Tesla Model S 85kWh has 3400AH and up is made up of many small cells 7104 of them in 16 modules (212AH per module). That way if a few fail prematurely (which will happen) it has only a small impact on long term performance. That same theory should be applied with RV and solar batteries, If that $3500 battery fails you are out $3500 vs having 3 independent $1000 smaller batteries wheres if one fails the risk is much lower. That would be considerably compounded with 700AH and 1000AH batteries...

[PNW Fireguy]

That is incorrect. Cells can be changed out just like they can in a Tesla module. Usually DIY'ers do not use the full size batteries from Telsa's but rather a number of modules to obtain the desired pack voltage. In addition the likelyhood of a cell failure at the charge and discharge rates we commonly see in RV usage is neglible. That is even the case with the Tesla manganese chemistry. The LiFePO4 batteries I use will outlast the RV. I am not sure of the relevancy of a "one for one replacement" statement and based upon your quoted figure I think you would be really surprised at the much lower cost many are deplying lithium for.

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

That is incorrect. Cells can be changed out just like they can in a Tesla module. Usually DIY'ers do not use the full size batteries from Telsa's but rather a number of modules to obtain the desired pack voltage. In addition the likelyhood of a cell failure at the charge and discharge rates we commonly see in RV usage is neglible. That is even the case with the Tesla manganese chemistry. The LiFePO4 batteries I use will outlast the RV. I am not sure of the relevancy of a "one for one replacement" statement and based upon your quoted figure I think you would be really surprised at the much lower cost many are deplying lithium for.

Cells cannot be changed out in a Tesla, the Module that is made up of cells is essentially the "Battery". You referenced you had a a single 700AH battery not a group of individual batteries in Parallel. So that clears up that confusion.

Look Lithium will last a very long time, the average ownership of an RV is 7.4 years so few would benefit long term, while buying Lithium may pay off over 20 years it does not in under 10 years, As well the resell value of Lithium in an RV after 10 years is nothing which is why the value of used Tesla's is dropping so fast today as the batteries age people are skeptical of battery life.

For lithium batteries to last 20 years you will likely need a temperature controlled compartment for them as they do not like heat to freezing temps as that can damage them as well void the warranty. Lithium batteries are not set and forget like some may suggest.

They are the best option just not a value. Cost will come way down in a couple years the technology and supply chain is still young.

[Daryles]

Ok, original question. Will he need to change his converter?
Depends on his converter. As previously said, check the manual.
The model # is on the inside of the fuse panel cover. Mine, 2019 3130re, Progressive Dynamics
model PD4575K18LS8.
https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Converte...575K18LS8.html

I can change a module in the fuse panel to make it Lithium compatible.
Lithium converter PD4575(LI)
https://www.progressivedyn.com/lithi...acement-units/

On my to do list...so much to learn...

[PNW Fireguy]

While you may not able to change out a cell that does not mean that others cannot. The more I got to thinking about your earlier comments the more I need to point out the obvious. Your 300AH relion battery you mentioned in your earlier post is made up of multiple cells just like every other lithium pack on the market. As far as opinions go we are definitley entitled to them regardless of whether they are right or wrong.



...No you do not necessarily have to change the charger out for a drop in replacment lithilum battery. The caveat is that it will operate at a fraction of its capacity because it cannot charge to full voltage. But it will operate within some SOC-DOD range most likely for considerabley longer than the manufacturer's stated number of life cycles.

[jeffba]

Guys when you hijack a someone's thread you should not complain about the responses

[PNW Fireguy]

Now that’s funny

[BiggarView]

i think renogy has a 170AH LFP battery for about $1400. easier to expand to two of those. The problem with a 300AH battery(at 3500 a pop) is if you want to expand your system, you can't just add a 100AH.... in theory you'd need another 300AH battery or so I have been told. that's a pretty big investment. it would be far easier to simply keep adding 100AH batteries after the first 3x100AH that are so called drop-ins until you meet your goal.