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Old 06-20-2017, 07:08 AM   #21
Oldsoldier
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Addendum

We are restoring a 1964 16' Fireball Meteor canned ham camper. My "Summer project" (in its third year) proves that no matter our problems today, we have it great compared to "back in the good old days when American workers did things so much better". Tools, materials, and construction are greater than then.
 
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:49 AM   #22
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Hope Montanas are OK and don't regret buying one. But buck up!! You don't own a KZ! We had one that went to the dealer every time we went camping...in fact, we stopped by the dealer on the way home from Arkansas, transloaded everything we could, and left it at Wheelen's RV in Joplin. Replaced the entire floor twice (didn't have it two years). Rain water dripped from the ceiling speakers (yippee! Two showers in one camper! How fortunate). More water ran inside the shower wall than in the shower (good thing we had another shower ��). Couldn't extend one bed (two fold-down beds). No electric outlets in the rear area. Plugging it into any outlet blew all pedestal circuit breakers. Coach frame floor was 2x2" pieces stapled together....end to end to make an 8' width....where ever the staples even hit the 2x2s. And the list goes on. Unit went back to KZ where they replaced the entire wooden floor with welded aluminum. While there, they ripped the underbelly and left it that way. I fixed that and installed 110v lines to plug in things by the beds. Our Forest River popup had issues, as well. Went out one Spring to clean it to start camping. Floor had turned to mush over the Winter! Actually mush. Turned ot FR tried a new belky pan design to keep out water. It actually retained water that got in; didn't let it drain and dry; the moisture retained soaked the OSB to the point the floor was destroyed. In FR's defence, when I called them fir advice on how to replace a flooe, FR picked up the camper; disassembled it; replaced the entire framing; laid new flooring; then rebuilt the entire popup to include new hardware for popping it up! Made it brand new again! Our 2012 Cougar Xlite 30rks was a different stiry. Love it and hate to trade it in on the Montana!! Only problem was nit having two slides in the living room to sleep grandkids...my fault fir nit getting a bigger TT. Hope and pray this Montana is as good. When we were in Texas for the Winter, we found Montana and other owners who were disgusted with their Keystones: slide cables broke 8 times on a 2016 39' Montana; panels dropping off another; even axle bearing covers sripoed off another. Buying this 310RE was an act of faith on our part. Hope it isn't a mistake.
We are on the same page. Traded a Cougar that only had a fender skirt replaced under warranty and no other problems. Hoping the Montana is just as good!
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:27 PM   #23
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We are restoring a 1964 16' Fireball Meteor canned ham camper. My "Summer project" (in its third year) proves that no matter our problems today, we have it great compared to "back in the good old days when American workers did things so much better". Tools, materials, and construction are greater than then.

I am restoring a 1972 Kaper TT that I use for a hunting camp. Its been a experience . In the good old days they weren't made any better.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:13 AM   #24
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You have a knack for understatement! They barely built them. We restorer idiots find far too many nightmares diring demolition. Plus the charlatans/cruds who prey on them. One bolt holding the coach onto the frame rusted to the point we had a rusty red bolt head attached to a rusty red washer and nut by a filament about the size of three human hairs. I bet there are some dead campers out there who trusted our derelicts and earlier restorations. I wouldn't want to try restoring a modern camper, however. Too big, technically advanced, and built too well to try. I had to repair a lot of cabinetry in our Cougar because of substandard construction, materials, and design. Easy enough, but unnecessary today! Fingers crosses on the Montana.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:33 AM   #25
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There are several reasons cars and trucks are better built and RVs are not. First of all, they were not well built until the Japanese cars started coming into the market. The Japanese cars were better built so the American car manufacturers either had to improve their products or lose out. I guess you have to be of a certain age to remember that.

Second, there are all kinds of government regulations involved with cars and trucks, safety standards, etc. The RV industry appears to be a lot less regulated. Maybe even totally unregulated?

Third, the demand for these attractive RVs is high, and the manufacturers are pumping them out as quickly and as cheaply as they can, resulting in little or no quality control. The former president of an RV manufacturing company told us once that the workers get to go home when they have completed their job for the day, not at the end of a certain number of hours. This means the desire to work quickly is high and the desire to work well is not.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:25 PM   #26
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There are several reasons cars and trucks are better built and RVs are not. First of all, they were not well built until the Japanese cars started coming into the market. The Japanese cars were better built so the American car manufacturers either had to improve their products or lose out. I guess you have to be of a certain age to remember that.

Second, there are all kinds of government regulations involved with cars and trucks, safety standards, etc. The RV industry appears to be a lot less regulated. Maybe even totally unregulated?

Third, the demand for these attractive RVs is high, and the manufacturers are pumping them out as quickly and as cheaply as they can, resulting in little or no quality control. The former president of an RV manufacturing company told us once that the workers get to go home when they have completed their job for the day, not at the end of a certain number of hours. This means the desire to work quickly is high and the desire to work well is not.
Two things to add here. As for the imports ~~ they started coming in mass more when gas prices skyrocketed and the big 3 had zero tiny gas sippers. They took hold more so with the gas shortages.

Read where the RV line people are paid hourly and piece work. Most are paid around $10 per hour but during good times can make $60K.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:43 AM   #27
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Agreed on parts of your reply. Japanese (now many other companies, as well) did impact quality here. And like the other guy said, they brought higher gas mileages needed when we only built gas guzzlers. But the quality aspect changed because we did aeay with the concept of "planned obsolescence". Car makers especially built in poorer quality so we were forced to replace cars sooner. Made for more profits and turnover. The vintage manufacturers were really bad about that. They churned out masses of campers....like some still today....that fell apart.....somewhat in actuality....very fast. That's why there were 3-5 thousand different companies over 5-6 decades. One company was the best example: Boles Aero built likely the best camper ever made! Beat Airstream and similars! Died out because unless one was involved in a wreck or family outgrew it, no one bought replacements. Couldn't generate enough new sales because of cheaper prices of lesser brands. US cars (and campers) were not designed and built to last. Harley Davidson was another great example of multiple bad things: quality was sooooo lowwww it was a market joke. I recall seeing bikes in the stores all with drip pans collecting oil from new bikes! Honda started to buy out HD, but when the executives inspected the factory it was so crappy and outdated, Honda backed out and opened their Marysville plant. Competition forced HD to improve! The protection import surcharge (35% if I recall) that idiot Reagan put in place to save HD hurt the company in the long run. But they eventually improved quality (too bad they can't improve the riders�� attitudes and image. At 70 I am of an age to recall these things.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:48 PM   #28
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Since this isn't supposed to be a political thread, I will let your attack on the greatest president of the 20th century slide for now. But the analysis you quoted on the TEMPORARY tariff on imported motorcycles signed into law in 1983 is a case of revisionist history. The tariff was initially 48% and dropped to zero after 5 years. It bought time for Harley to retool and more importantly shed the lousy AMF mis -management. Whether or not Harley makes a quality product or not is a debate in which I am not willing to partake. ��
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:52 PM   #29
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For something that isn't supposed to be political, you went there. 1. Reagan was NOT the great Ptesident you purport. He brought to us "Reaganomics " which placed us well and truly into a major recession (to the point the government provided letters to banks, credit unions, and other institutions asking them to not "bounce" military members' checks or report us at default for not paying our bills....with the promise we would, in fact, be paid....eventually; 2. The Iran-Contra Affair including arming/budgeting groups which included starting the Taliban; 3. Slapping together a failed defense system his own science advisor advised him was imposdible: the Strategic Defense Initiative [SDI] which blew apart budgets including the military budget; 4. Giving protection to an unAmeeican failure named Ollie North; 5. Speaking into a live microphone joking "Russia, I just pushed the Red Button, our missiles will hit you in five minutes" which caused the USSR to go to its highest military response alert and made nuclear war a possibility...in fact he did that TWICE! As one of those soldiers not paid, I recall that quite well; I was commanding a company with over 200 soldiers who didn't receive their pay. And let's not even focus on asking the Iranians to delay release of the embassy hostages after the agreed-upon release date under Carter to make him look better. But if you want to beleve he was a great President, feel free. Or, as John Ford replied to the reporter who asked what he felt upon Reagan becoming California Governor he said: " Teagan...Governir? No. Reagan best friend if the Governor? Yes." (Don't forget that Ronnie never was a lead actor in most of his films...he was best friend to the lead character). And if AMF hadn't bailed out HD, keeping them solvent....we would have lost HD. Not much of a loss, but a loss nonetheless. Many even believe he was a great Army officer who saved soldiers' lives when he actually stayed in Hollywood making training films fir the military...my favorite was the one he introduced on how to avoid contracting Syphillis.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:40 PM   #30
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One month to the day and we can pick up our rv.....they covered and replaced the fridge , blind and installed a new ball valve on the toilet . Would not warranty the drain sticking up 1/4 " . For now I will caulk with silicone and at some later date remove the belly and re-pipe the drain correctly. 3 of 4 ......1 month ! Most of the time was waiting for a new fridge...by the way it was $2,700 for the fridge....plus labor...4-5 hours .
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:42 PM   #31
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BTW...not sure how politics got entwined into this thread.....guess I should have asked the dealer who he voted for .
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:25 PM   #32
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Old Soldier: At least 10 factual errors in your rant, but as I said this is not a political thread. You need to get out in your trailer more, and read Huffington Post less.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:56 PM   #33
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Old Soldier: At least 10 factual errors in your rant, but as I said this is not a political thread. You need to get out in your trailer more, and read Huffington Post less.
X 2!! but what would Pelosi say?
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Old 06-24-2017, 07:25 AM   #34
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Will never understand why Keystone has not heard of that new fangled service called 'Quality Control".

Fixed it for you.
Best response in a LONG time!
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