Full Timing in the Winter

[Montana_1424]

I have some questions I hope all you full timers can help me out with here. We juts sold our house today, and are planning on building a house. Becasue of this, we obviously do not have a house or want to rent an apartment for a few months, so we are thinking about juts shacking up in our rig for the next 3-6 months, HOWEVER, we live in Syracsue, NY and everyone knows about the snow and cold temperaturs here. SO, I am wondering, if my 2004 3650 RK with the Artic Package will hold up? Will the water lines frezze? Is this something we can realistically do for the winter? I am not retired, so I cant go someplace warm while this is going on. Any advice and tips would be a great help, as we will need to vacate our house after the first of the year. Thanks.

[Montana Sky]

I look forward to Steve R's reply to this question. I know he is spending the next few months in the midwest and knows all the tricks to keep things flowing and "liveable".

[CountryGuy]

Kozzy45

I'll bet if you do a search and be sure to search the archives as well, you will be reading for a month or so,lots already said about this.

You are gonna have to do some SERIOUS winterizing of the unit, foam, electric heat cords on the water system, etc.

Artic package is NOT a good description, and most of us find that it is better described as summer package. It is NOT going to keep you from freezing up.

You are gonna have to work on this to keep from freezing.

Good luck.

[sreigle]

Ed, does your 3650RK have the low point drains in the basement storage area or are they hanging underneath like ours? Somewhere around the 2004 or 2005 models Keystone heard what we said here and moved them indoors where they are less likely to freeze. If they're hanging outside I would recommend you wrap them with heat tape and plug it in. That was our most susceptible area to freezing. I put on the heat tape, put the foam pipe insulation over that, wrapped a bit of insulation around that and covered it all with duct tape. Before doing that last winter we had trouble with those lines freezing. When it gets cold enough they freeze up into the belly to where the tee into the main lines and shut off water flow. After heat taping we no longer had that problem.

If yours are indoors, they may well not freeze. If yours are indoors then you also have a model where Keystone moved the water lines up off the frame and into the top area of the belly where it is the warmest. You need to make sure, either way, that the furnace runs enough to keep warm air in the belly. I set the furnace on 55 (last year) or 58 this year. When no danger of a hard freeze we will run an electric heater downstairs to cut down on propane use. When water lines may freeze, we shut that heater off to make sure the furnace will run. If possible, get one of those large propane tanks and the hose to connect to it. Every park where we've done this has provided the bottle free of charge. We just pay for the propane used.

We run an electric heater upstairs because ours doesn't put a lot of warm air up there. At night we'll close the door between upstairs and downstairs and use the electric heater upstairs.

We also the past two winters put 3M window insulation film, the heat shrink type, on our windows since we do not have the dual paned windows. That helped a lot. However, after twice removing the valances to install the film, then reinstalling the valances, we saw signs those screws may be losing their bite. So this winter I took a cue from another member and got the outdoor film and put that on all our windows. Early signs are this will be very effective. This year I also put the film on our screen door so we can have the main door open on nice, sunny days. I don't know yet if we can do this in really cold weather.

My water hose is heat taped and wrapped also. I keep this hose in the basement just for winter use. I also heat taped the parks' water pipes and the spigot and wrapped those. On top of that I have a 5 gallon bucket full of insulation that I slip over the head of the water spigot as extra insulation. This has kept the hose and water spigot from freezing.

We had a few instances of freezing up the past two winters. Once I ended up laying under the rig with a hairdryer to thaw out the low point drains. That worked all but one time when they were frozen too far into the belly. Hopefully with the heat tape that won't happen again.

Last week I dropped the door side edge of the belly pan and installed foam insulation on all our water lines from the rear axle forward. Our lines lay on the frame and they sometimes would freeze at that point, I think. This should eliminate that problem or reduce it significantly. I have yet to insulate the lines aft of the rear axle but hope to do those this next week. I will have to remove the spare, the spare carrier and some other things to access the lines. Our heat taped water lines and the water heater are in that part of the coach so this might not be necessary. But I'm going to try to get it done anyhow.

I also filled the fresh water tank. Because of the location of our tank and water pump, last winter we found when our lines froze we could still use onboard water in the bathroom area. We just didn't have water in the kitchen. Well, once, when it got down to minus 5 F we did freeze up and had no water at the bathroom vanity but the toilet always had water.

Sewer line. If you keep the sewer hose hooked up fulltime, be sure it has no place where it can collect water. Otherwise it will freeze at that location and other water that goes in there will build up and you will have a solid popsicle. Had that last year. This year I got one of those sliding holders that keep the hose in a straight line and on a slope so this won't happen again. It was not fun cleaning up the mess. A frozen sewer hose will just come apart in your hands. And the contents fall out. When it thaws.... well, let's just say ours included sewage from the black tank. Lots of clorox and water to clean it up.

If you some way to build a skirt around the bottom, that should help keep the cold wind from freezing the water lines and also keep that wind from stealing heat from the belly and the coach floor. We thought about installing a skirt but have nowhere to store it. We are already using some of the kids' basements and don't want to ask them to store that much more. So we will not skirt ours. If we have freezing problems this winter then we'll rethink that for next year.

Your area there in Syracuse will probably get colder than here in the Kansas City area and for longer periods. It will be a challenge but it can be done. If you don't get a big propane bottle, in very cold weather you'll be refilling a 30 lb. tank every 3 or 4 days.

Good luck. I hope it works out for you. Others have done it. Hopefully someone who has been that far north over the winter will see your question.

[Montana_1424]

Thanks for the infor Steve, it does get much colder here, like -20 sometimes, so I have soem work to do, but at least I know where to start. We are actually going to park it in my inlwas ( GREAT FOR ME LOL) yard, so might be able to get buy without using the toilet and shower, but I would like to have access to water if necessary. Now, with the chemicals in the tanks, and some Antifreeze, will the waste freeze up if we use a sink or toilet in a pinch? Thanks again.

[dsprik]

Ed, another skirting idea we discussed on a previous thread, was getting ahold of bales of straw, and build them up around the whole unit. I may do this, not sure, depends on the cost of straw bales. Also someone mentioned styrofoam sheets as a possible skirting material.

Also, found the thread... Do a search for the title "skirting material?"... lots of info.

[OntMont]

We don't full time, but have occasionally been caught out in cold windy weather while en route to milder climes. I am convinced that the single best thing you can do is to seal up all the gaps in the belly cover, especially the gaps where it sags between the screws. The "Arctic Package Insulation" can only be effective if the belly area is kept free of cold drafts. (Sort of like insulating your house basement, but leaving all the basement windows open.) Otherwise Steve's suggestions are all very valid and based on real experience.

(One other thought: why not install some type of auxillary electic space heater in the basement that you can turn on when the going gets tough.)

[dsprik]

John, how are you sealing you belly gaps. I was going to ask this on an earlier thread and I forgot. Thanks for reminding me. My thoughts that first came to mind were,

1. Silicone caulking (can always be cut through if need be later, and it will flex and give a little during road travel). Also you can get the different year guaratees... I think up to 50 yrs... not for sure on that, though.
and
2. Duct tape (Looks tacky and leaves BAD residue)
3. Many additional screws (a LOT of work, may damage the belly panels if not careful).

These are only impressions as I do not have my Montana yet, so these are just some insights from readiing this forum.

[OntMont]

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

John, how are you sealing you belly gaps.

My intention (not yet accomplished) is to fasten strips of wood under the belly panels, using the existing screws + a washer (or longer ones if necessary), so that the belly panels end up being sandwiched between the wood and the frame. May add some caulking as well. Simplest thing would be to get some good 1 x 2 from the lumber yard, but I have some old redwood boards that I have been saving for "something". I think I may use them. Whatever I use I will finish it with black paint and I think it will look decent for as long as I care about.

I favour this approach because it does not really impede access to the belly. I will have to address smaller holes and gaps on a case by case basis.

[sreigle]

Ahhh, that's something I forgot to mention. I used the expanding foam to seal all openings in the bellypan. There are quite a few. Also in the basement storage area. One thing many of us found, put a light in the basement then go look along the bottom of the sliding door between upstairs and downstairs. Lots of light coming through from the basement. That means a big cold draft. I filled that area from the basement side with the expanding foam until I saw no more light.

Something we've not done that I wonder if it might help when it gets that cold in NY -- The floors seem to radiate the cold, especially the bare floors but also on the carpeted area. I wonder if overlapping throw rugs over all floor areas would help.

Another thing I forgot. You can put insulation along the outside walls in the cabinet areas. I did that on the back wall of ours. I used the paper backed insulation a couple of inches thick then put foamboard over that. Duct tape holds it all in place. Slide walls seem to radiate the most cold.

Vicki also came up with sliding foamboard between the window and shades. That helps on the windows and is easily removable when you want to raise the shade. The foamboards can slide under the couch when not in use.

On the 3295, the water heater is in the rear corner of the coach, in the kitchen area. There is a big opening where that compartment borders the rear cap. There are electrical wires going through that hole but the opening is much larger than the wires. I stuffed insulation in that hole, too. Before that we got quite a breeze through that hole. We still get some from that area but I've not found the source yet. I added caulking around the water heater frame on the outside, too.

Take warm clothes. At 20 below it's going to be chilly in there.

[smc]

If you use straw bales around the trailer be very careful the are not near the hot water tank or furnace. In another trailer the bales stared on fire, luckily we caught it before anything was damaged. In northern Alerta some crews live in their trailers all winter. We saw some with plywood skirting the had insulation tacked to it. The trailer park we saw had about 15 trailers and the highs were -20! There were 2 Big Sky's there. Good Luck.

[smc]

Forgot. We have rugs for the floor that we use in colder weather (which we try to avoid) It really does help.

[richfaa]

It is good to gain all this valuable information about how to survive in sub zero temperatures in your Montana.We have used many of these ideas in homes and hunting camps we have owned over the years.However these structures were firmly attached to the ground.We note the presence of wheels on the Montana 3670RL and its ability to be attached to the rear of our truck and be moved anywhere we would like to move it.(these were outstanding selling points) Our winterizing plan is to move the Montana from a cold place to a warm place and stay in the warm place till the cold place becomes a warm place. We are going to try that plan first...

[Illini Trekker]

I work out of my trailer and out of one other trailer we had. Spent two different winters in an RV in central Illinois.
Water lines: I heat taped all water lines I grouped the hot and cold together with some 3/4 thick x 2" pipe foam. I was able to push the pipe foam and heat tape along the waterlines and used black tape to hold the foam tight. Wrap all the line with heat tape and foam, low point drains, and basement pipes. If you have the outside shower option I would put shut-offs at some point in the line, drain the lines, heat tape and wrap the shutoffs. I had a dedicated electric line for my two heat tapes I use.

All drains did not pose to be a problem if you do as Steve suggested. There were times when I ran extra hot water in the line to make sure no ice was there.

For the sags in the under belly I would use angle iron. I saw some at the hardware store that had holes in it already that was 1x1 angle. You could leave this on year round.

There are holes in the frame that the slides use that can be filled with scrap pipe foam. You will also find other places that leak air, can be filled with that foam.

The LP Dealers should have a 250-gallon tank (PIG) you can get with better LP rates.

I have done more to mine but with this and others ideas you should be alright!!!

[sreigle]

Labarnas, any ideas you have time to add would be appreciated.

Richfaa, alas, can't get any of our three kids to move to somewhere warmer in the winter than Kansas City. So long as they all are here, we will be here for the winter holidays.

As for hay bales for skirting, we thought about that and posted asking opinion a few months ago. Someone mentioned how hay draws mice and insects. That alone caused me to reconsider. Otherwise, hay would be ideal. Great insulation, relatively inexpensive, easy to give away when done with it. Or even sell. But I'll pass. We neither need nor want any mice or other crawly critters in this place. It's small enough with just the two of us.

[dsprik]

Steve, it's been my experience that field mice like any place that warm in the winter. I believe that if you're going to have trouble with mice with straw, you may have trouble with anything boarded and insulated that provides extra warmth for those little critters. However, smc's comment about fire danger raises a valid point. The exhaust vents on the furnace/water heater get quite hot. We camped in an '86 Class C once that spit sparks out of the vent for a little while when we lit the pilot of the furnace. That would be a bad combination.

[richfaa]

We always used hay bales around our Hunting camp in Pa and they worked great.However it would be a hassle to use them around the RV and messy and the park owners might object to the "look".,Steve..our kids are "suggesting" where we might go for the winter..3 votes for Florida, Sun amd beaches and 2 for Texas..good hunting..We are suggesting that we can be bribed as to location.

[dsprik]

When the "bribe" reaches the cost of your stay at the CG for the winter, that would be the end of the bidding for me!

[Montana_883]

Don't you know what that hitch is for? Go South

[dsprik]

Great plan, John! I think it's just terrible that one becomes so attached to their kids, grandkids, ailing parents, and brothers and sisters to the point where it totally messes up your good time, and interferes with your schedule. That's it... Ive had it! I'm calling a family meeting! The gall that they think we have to spend some of the Holidays with them! How dare they think they have some hold over us! I'll let everyone know how it goes. Boy, John, you really got me stirred up now!

Just kidding. If we couldn't be around family and friends, what good is our lifestyle? We can sacrifice for family and head south later... we may just get a little cold, a little while... Just as long as we are NOT in N. Mich in Feb/March. Richfaa has a good plan, too... have the kids come visit YOU where it warm. That would work sometimes, but not always... some of my family still works for a living, and my ailing mother can't travel, but we sure are going to throw that out to them. They're welcome anytime (maybe).

But we really would if we could, John.