Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > MOC Technical Forums > Repairs & Service
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-22-2013, 08:10 AM   #1
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
Black tank flush leak

I know this was discussed some time ago but I could not find it.
Started the black tank flush and water began pouring out from behind the shower. I remember a discussion about some kind of valve in the flush line that is installed up in the wall. I think one of the connections must have come loose the way water was pouring out. Problem is the only way to access it I can see is to remove the shower enclosure to get to it. It is in the wall between the shower and the entry coat closet.
Help me understand exactly what it is and how it is plumbed.
I could do it, but not sure I want to or have the time right now. Leaving in two weeks for Colorado. But would like to understand it before I call an RV repair place.
 
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 08:41 AM   #2
Sierra 117
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stratford
Posts: 241
M.O.C. #9481
It is likely a defective vacuum breaker valve. On my rig it can be accessed by taking the shower faucets off then reaching up and pulling the water line out through the hole.
Sierra 117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #3
Chip
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Friendship, Maine
Posts: 483
M.O.C. #6338
This valve is in the wall between the shower and the back wall of your closet. Do not remove the shower! My dealer wanted to do that on my 3075 but I said there has to be a better way.

Open your closet door and look at the back wall for an access cover. Remove this. If you do not have an access cover you can make one yourself. If you look between the sliding door and have someone turn on the back flush you should be able to see the spray and you will know where the valve is. Measure the height and transfer that height on the back wall of your closet. Make a hole large enough for your hand to get in and remove the valve.

Hope this helps.
__________________

2012 Big Sky 3400, now an SOB 5th wheel
2007 Montana 3075 previously
2015 GMC 3500 Dually
Chip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 10:58 AM   #4
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
There is an access cover in the cabinet above the coat closet. Took the cover off and there is nothing behind it. (wonder why it was put there). But I got up higher, looked down thru the opening and off to one side and could barely see the back side of the shower connections. Reached my arm in and could feel the valve a little below those fittings. So I cut a new access opening in that area and took the valve out. Badly cracked and one fitting broke off when I was disconnecting the water lines. Must have froze. I thought I pumped enough antifreeze thru the flush line to fill it but I guess it did not make it that far.
Any way a new valve is in order. It is a Lakeview RV Supply Model 1000. Can't find that doing a google search. Did find Lakeview RV Supply and e-mailed them but have not heard back yet. What did those of you do that have already replaced one.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 11:58 AM   #5
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
Ours is between the shower wall and the pantry wall. There is an access panel in the pantry wall but it's not even close to where that check valve is located. Somebody screwed up at the factory on that. If you don't see it in that opening, get yourself a hand mirror and flashlight. I had to cut a new access hole.
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 01:54 PM   #6
DQDick
Site Team
 
DQDick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Wilsey
Posts: 18,799
M.O.C. #11455
I just took mine out altogether before it decided to fail. I use a restaurant style external one in the convenience center before the water even comes into the rig. It's brass and it won't cause me any problems.
__________________
Dick, Joyce, Diego, Picatso and Gustav
2017 3720 RL, and 2013 HC 343RL
Pullrite Hitch, IS, Disk Brakes, 3rd AC, Winegard Traveler, Bathroom door mod, Dometic 320, couch for desk swap, replaced chairs, sun screens, added awnings, etc.
DQDick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 03:57 PM   #7
Petmoose
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Denton
Posts: 289
M.O.C. #12532
I have a 3582 and the only way to get to the breaker is to take off the shower fixture and reach into the wall. Considering how hard it is to get to, i like the solution fom DQDick. Do you have a picture of what you put in line to take its place?
Petmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 04:09 PM   #8
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
Dick - the valve on mine is designed as a backflow preventer but also as a vacuum break to allow the water to drain out of the line after you turn the flush water off. That is why it is mounted high up in the wall. Not sure why the drain feature is necessary. Does your modification do that?
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 06:31 PM   #9
Irlpguy
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 1,520
M.O.C. #12935
My back flow preventer fortunately is fairly easy to access behind the vanity sink in the bedroom, it has failed once and been replaced, if it fails again I will connect the two lines without it.

These lines are "not" winterized when you use the pump to winterize the rest of the unit, the water from the flush inlet goes up to the valve and then to the black water tank, it is above both so that it can drain into the tank on one side of the valve and back out the fill pipe on the other side. The valve and high placement of it are intended to prevent siphoning back from the black water tank. Neither of my SOB units had this stupid cheap valve in the flush line.

I don't know what Dick is using but if mine were located where some are having to get at them then I would be removing them as well. We certainly do not use the same water hose to supply our unit with fresh water that we would use to flush the Black water tank and when I connect up to an extra hose for this purpose I have a valve at the fill fitting and turn the water off and on at that point, I disconnect the hose with the valve closed so it cannot siphon back into the hose.

Just another engineering marvel we have to make right along the way.
Irlpguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 06:34 PM   #10
steelpony5555
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Copperas Cove
Posts: 1,426
M.O.C. #12096
I just went to Lowe's and got an elbow, problem solved. No problems since, I never leave a hose connected to it so I don't have to worry about back flow. And a hose that big should drain easily, if not when I winterize I blow out the lines anyways. Either way is still don't work as well as the one on my last rig.
steelpony5555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 03:22 AM   #11
vangoes
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Crossville
Posts: 184
M.O.C. #10367
My previous SOB rig also had the same cheap plastic valve in it and many, many owners had the same problems with it leaking. However, I had my unit 7 years and never had a problem but I always used a pressure regulator with the flush hose. Maybe this is the solution? (Now watch, my new unit will probably fail now that I've said that!)
__________________
Crossville, TN
2012 3455SA
2013 Ram 3500 Swd
vangoes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 04:31 AM   #12
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
I did get an e-mail from the original manufacturer. $29 for a replacement. Can not find an equivalent valve elsewhere.
I think I will buy one and put everything back as original. Has been fine for 6 years.
Even though the chances of it happening are very remote, under the very specific conditions it would be possible for black water to be siphoned back thru the park water supply if there were not at least a check valve in the line. (black tank full above spray valves, flush line valve open, water company shut off water for maintnance, and water drains out of main line pulling vacuum on connected pipes would be one scenerio. remote but certainly possible)
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 03:46 PM   #13
mr_gdr
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TWIN FALLS
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #19848
Thank you

Every one of you had great information, I have only owned this 2009 Montana for about four months, I bought it used and I was warned that it had a leak when you try to flush out the black tank.

You have answered all of my questions let me answer one for you. I would think that the back Flow valve that is the culprit that keeps breaking on everyone.

Is put there to meet some kind of EPA government controlled bull ****, to protect our environment from our own farts. From what I have read it seems we don't need it for it to function properly with a little common sense.

So If we can get around it we should do so. That's my two cents worth thanks again. Gary
mr_gdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 04:23 PM   #14
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
I never followed up on this thread to say that I eliminated my anti siphon valve by using an extra elbow and short piece of PEX. And use an external anti siphon valve as Dick mentioned.

It is there for the same reason lawn sprinkler systems are required to have anti siphon valves. In the case of loss of water supply pressure in the main line, as water flows out of the line it will begin pulling a vacuum in the line. That can cause it to siphon contaminated water from any open port connected to that line. The chances of that happening on a sprinkler system are fairly high. On a black tank flush it could not occur unless supply pressure were lost while someone was flushing their black tank, i.e. an open line to the black tank flush nozzle. Remote, but possible.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 05:03 PM   #15
mr_gdr
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TWIN FALLS
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #19848
thanks.. I will do that..
mr_gdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 12:29 PM   #16
waynemoore
Montana Master
 
waynemoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ.
Posts: 1,811
M.O.C. #10552
I did as many have. Two elbows a small piece of PEX and am done with all the foolishness. I never leave a hose hooked to the flush when not flushing and have an external anti siphon valve prevent any problems.
waynemoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 03:41 PM   #17
mr_gdr
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TWIN FALLS
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #19848
Problem is

Quote:
Originally Posted by waynemoore View Post
I did as many have. Two elbows a small piece of PEX and am done with all the foolishness. I never leave a hose hooked to the flush when not flushing and have an external anti siphon valve prevent any problems.
the problem is trying to find the pipe in the wall. Looks like the only way to do that is to cut a hole in the wall. I have been in touch with Keystone and their answer is take it to one of their representatives to do the work. That's fine for people that have lots of money I do not have that and it is not that hard to fix, I have asked them many times for a schematic on the water lines in my rv, I actually thought they were going to help me out when they ask for my VIN number but they did not everything would have been very simple for everyone if they had only put in an access panel to begin with. Shame on them.
mr_gdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 03:56 PM   #18
mr_gdr
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TWIN FALLS
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #19848
photo under my lower Montana Keystone 2009 3400 model

http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...1&d=1495748963



I'm only guessing on these pipes..I know which one is hot in which one is cold I ran water through them to find that out. The other two, 1 I'm certain is going to the problem area. (I put red dye in a hose and then added a little pressure and it blew out upstairs where I could see it by looking through the privacy door) If I only knew for sure that the one headed out was the proper one I would put a joint in between under the floors without cutting into the wall. are any of you certain on this. It seems to be the only ones headed in that direction. I'm guessing the hot and cold go to the shower.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	backflow.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	159.7 KB
ID:	232  
mr_gdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 04:03 PM   #19
mr_gdr
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TWIN FALLS
Posts: 6
M.O.C. #19848
http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...1&d=1495748963

does anyone know if this is correct? I'm positive on the hot and cold and on the backflow valve which is the water coming in from the flash connection.
mr_gdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 04:05 PM   #20
Butch & Kathy
Montana Fan
 
Butch & Kathy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: West Melbourne
Posts: 310
M.O.C. #18980
When my anti syphon started leaking I bypassed with elbows and pipe then replaced the hose connection with a built in check valve. Also ordered a black one so I don't have to read the labels. I was fortunate that my anti syphon valve was inside the bathroom vanity.
__________________
Butch and Kathy
2016 3160RL Legacy, Sailun S637, Centramatic Balancers, 2-T105s, Amish Refrigeration, ARPrv, SoftStartRV, FlexArmor roof
2016 F350 6.7L SRW
Butch & Kathy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black Tank Flush leak not check valve, wrong! davidaf General Discussions about our Montanas 8 03-25-2014 03:35 PM
Black Tank Flush Leak Problem Resolved BB_TX Repairs & Service 5 06-07-2013 01:50 PM
Black tank Flush leak robertwhenderson General Discussions about our Montanas 3 12-29-2008 10:53 AM
Back tank flush leak dsprik Montana Problems, Problem Solving & Technical Help 23 04-04-2008 10:34 AM
Black tank flush TLG Maintenance 9 11-10-2007 08:31 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.