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Old 01-15-2020, 07:09 PM   #61
mtlakejim
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I’ve had many people call the shop and suggested changes to a product. They never suggest a change that wouldn’t add to the costs sometimes doubling the cost. I always listen and discuss it with them and ask how much they would be willing to pay for the change.
If you can make a change draw it up and make one then send it to Montana. If it will work and doesn’t add to the cost they will use it, if it’s something that will improve their products and is something that can actually be made on a production basis they will use it. That is a BIG order. Try it.
Lynwood
So your telling me it would cost more to change the way the head banging door opens on the control panels that are directly above the entry steps???? I beg to differ. It is totally due to designers never using the product and not having a clue OR not caring. All about getting the product out the door with no reguard for quality or professionalism.

Many of the changes I have heard about would not cost a penny more or at most only a very slight increase but would yield large benefits to OWNERS. Like most other owners I work on my unit all the time, adding improvements over what I originally purchased. Yeah I get it that there has to be compromise to not have an overpriced unit but you know as well as I do that there are some really stupid designs out there because the engineers/designers/builders don't actually live in the products.

And there are some things that could be offered as an enhancement package for those of us who would be wiling to pay more. I would have gladly paid extra for Independent suspension, disc brakes and cushion hitch pin at the time of purchase so it could be added to the finance package! Now I have to pay for those upgrades out of pocket.....

My suggestion is you offer some upgrade packages and see how it goes. You might be surprised at the number of folks that would pay extra for some additions. At the very least, work with some vendors to offer the packages thru them somehow!!! That doesn't cost you a dime!
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Old 01-16-2020, 07:46 AM   #62
mlh
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Jim I don’t know why you think people who design campers don’t use them. That is like saying people who design cars walk to work. Sure they use them. They just don’t design them to suit everyone but they can’t. As far as the “head banger door”’ I think I would just learn to shut it like all the other doors.
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:28 AM   #63
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Head Banger Door - aka. Door of Death

In practice I agree that those of us who have this deadly door just need to develop the habit of closing it. However, the "Door of Death" has tagged my wife real good a couple times. The learning curve can be painful. I know by talking with others who have this feature, and also reading other threads, that this is a common problem with this particular door.

For me the solution was to install a couple small eye screws and a small bungee to gently pull the door shut. The nature and location of that door in the process of setting up the trailer makes it very easy to forget, leaving it standing open as a death trap for the next person going up the steps while typically looking down at the steps.

Anyway, it's a common problem but there's a simple solution.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:34 PM   #64
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I like the simple solution on the head banging door. My wife and I both learned the hard way. Yes, it's an annoyance just like bumping your head on a slide-out. ��

Yes, I would like to have more factory options such as disc brakes, shock absorbers, and cushioned hitches. When I toured the factory, the Montana representative said he was taking one of my suggestions back for discussion. The more feedback we give, the better.

On the other hand, if I REALLY want an upgrade, I'll do it and worry about financing later.

I take safety very seriously. Rather than get irritated about bumping my head, I paid to upgrade my tires before I brought the 5er home. I bought the next size up unit to get stronger suspension and larger tires. So, it can be done.
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:13 PM   #65
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Head banger door should have never made it out of the factory! period No ifs ands or buts
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:49 PM   #66
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What "I don't get" is folks trying to defend the indefensible. Some of these STUPID design flaws would be glaringly obvious to just about anyone who actually used a camper AND they have (as others point out) very simple solutions! That the designer/engineers can't even get this simple stuff corrected promptly really speaks volumes about the mindset of "get em out the door" mentality.


Can owners fix these dumb mistakes themselves, YES. Should they leave the factory that way, HECK NO! At least not after the 100th owner mentions it at least......


Like someone else said, if the engineers actually spent some time using the units and really cared about the practical function of what was built these little things would be resolved promptly. Yeah a few might slip by but things like that head banging door would be fixed by the middle of the first year model it was installed on!!!


And lets not get too focused on the head banging door it is but one of dozens of examples. BTW, the automotive engineer analogy was apples and oranges. We all HAVE to use cars. You don't have to own an RV to design one. BUT you SHOULD!!!!!
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
In practice I agree that those of us who have this deadly door just need to develop the habit of closing it. However, the "Door of Death" has tagged my wife real good a couple times. The learning curve can be painful. I know by talking with others who have this feature, and also reading other threads, that this is a common problem with this particular door.

For me the solution was to install a couple small eye screws and a small bungee to gently pull the door shut. The nature and location of that door in the process of setting up the trailer makes it very easy to forget, leaving it standing open as a death trap for the next person going up the steps while typically looking down at the steps.

Anyway, it's a common problem but there's a simple solution.
That's not a bad solution. However, there are times when we want the door open for extended timeframes (like when I am filling the fresh water tank and the wife is monitoring the level lights). But I think maybe the better solution may be to mount the door lower (be easier for the wife to see and reach as well) or remove it altogether (although some might argue that would be an issue with children). A good engineer who is aware of the issue and worked for a company that cared, should be able to come up with a solution that would not cost anymore than the current installation I would think.
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Old 01-16-2020, 09:04 PM   #68
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Head banger doors

If I bump my head on the pantry door or the coffee bar cabinet door - it doesn’t mean the designer messed up. I have bumped my head on a bunch of doors in my lifetime...so far it never was the door’s fault. I am the one who failed to close the door in the montana control cabinet, and I have bumped my head on it twice. It only took one head bump on DW’s head and I have managed to close the door every time since.

When I look around in my unit - I can not find a better place to put the control cabinet than where they put it!
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Old 01-16-2020, 09:39 PM   #69
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If I bump my head on the pantry door or the coffee bar cabinet door - it doesn’t mean the designer messed up. I have bumped my head on a bunch of doors in my lifetime...so far it never was the door’s fault. I am the one who failed to close the door in the montana control cabinet, and I have bumped my head on it twice. It only took one head bump on DW’s head and I have managed to close the door every time since.

When I look around in my unit - I can not find a better place to put the control cabinet than where they put it!
Actually on ours if the door was hinged to open in the opposite direction it would be out of the way. I am going to turn the door upside down and reinstall it. Wow that won't cost a single cent more for the manufacturer to do and then no one would bump their head coming up the steps when someone else leaves the door open during setup (ask me how I know that one). And yes it is the engineers fault when they don't place a door wisely!!

I get it that mistakes will be made when your churning out units at the rate that they are. But you also think that some of these really dumb but easy to correct issues would be resolved in very short order and that just doesn't seem to happen. I mean really how hard is it to walk out to the assembly line and say "hey guys flip those doors over, folks are banging their heads on them".


Now lets get off of the head banger door because it is only one example. I get it that SOME folks might call that nit picky. I noticed NO ONE argued that the double latch system on exterior doors that requires two hands to open was a poor design!

Anyway I am about tired of trying to sway folks that try to defend the engineers and Keystone at all cost. Just because we bought the product doesn't mean we can't point out issues. "I don't get it".
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:25 PM   #70
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What gets me is the items that don’t cost anything to fix. For instance on my 3100rl the switches for rear overhead lights are on the back wall behind the recliners. You can’t reach them when sitting, you have to get up and then lean over the chair to reach it. How about the light over the kitchen table with the switch on the fixture itself. You have to contort your hand through the shade to operate it. I replaced it with a pull chain switch, and I bet the wholesale between the two switches is negligible. I love the auto on light when you open the door, but if it’s raining and you have to shut the door quickly you’re left in the dark until you find the switch across the entryway. Wouldn’t cost anything to move the switch over by the door. Here’s one that would cost a couple of bucks, the cabinet door over the microwave that opens up so that you have to hold it with one hand while you fumble around inside with the other. Many of us have added a gas strut, but why should we have to. If they moved my island forward an inch or two I could open one side of the refrigerator without opening the slide, there’s plenty of room to do so. No added cost. So, while Jim and I don’t always see eye to eye, I’m with him 100% on this issue!
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Old 01-17-2020, 07:13 AM   #71
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I have my gripes, none of which are head bangin' doors since our HC predates that 'wonderful' feature. I also sincerely doubt that there is much Keystone engineering going into designing and building these RVs. A decent draftsman/designer comes up with the box while Lippert desigms the frame and running gear to a spec. The internal components are supplied by 3rd party vendors and screwed into place. I also doubt that many 'mature' women**' have a say in how the components are placed.


My gripes - kinda:
- LED ceiling lights with no individual shut off switch (changed out)
- An enclosed fire hazard - a halogen bulb over the stove that would get to almost 400*F (changed to an LED)
- A fridge with insufficiant condender cooling
- No stair handrail (it now has one)
- A bed riser that my DW needed a step stool to get on (cut down 5")
- Emergency exit windows witout a real breakaway hinge
- Steps to the bedroom that were 1 and 2 inch height difference
- Exposed stairwell thermostat that I kept yanking the cover off with a sleeve (fixed with a frame around it, leaving air space)
- Frameless windows that only open 3-4" without trimming the slider spacer (most have been fixed)
- Semi shag mediocre grade carpet rather then an easy care berber or short nap.
- Recliners that wouldn't stay reclined without an effort - (removed/replaced)
- Air mattress hideabed garbage (removed/sold replaced)
- No coat hooks (added several)
- No towel bars (added)
- Toilet seat we almost fell through (changed)
- Non adjustable heat vents (Changed)

Then there was that multitude of electric, water and drain holes - plugged after a rodent invasion.


These are not all Keystone but most of which is epidemic of the low/mid end RV industry. Yes, to fix some of them would be a few bucks, but of course those bucks would be added to the bottom line of the MSRP. Since many RV buyers want to purchase at the lowest price, and manufacturers sell whatever they assemble, why should they spend the extra bucks. If a buyer wont spend a few more bucks for better quality/design, why would a manufacturer fix the glitches we have perceived.


You buy what fits your budget and lifestyle then you do your mods. Heck, most of them I enjoy doing in a CG rather then sitting, contemplating my belly button


** mature women = NOT millenials
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:30 AM   #72
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You buy what fits your budget and lifestyle then you do your mods. Heck, most of them I enjoy doing in a CG rather then sitting, contemplating my belly buttons
Ditto this

Most of us agree that the care the OEM's take in assembling our rigs could be a lot better so that what they build works as it should. But even if that were the case most RVers would still have a list of likes and dislikes. There's no way for the OEM's to produce enough cost effective models at the prices that the market will bear. Most of us would not be willing to pay the cost of customization.

Just like buying a house, you buy what you like best within your budget and make the changes you want.
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