3400's GVWR low? options=liability risk?

[Montana_1240]

quote:Originally posted by rickfox


I also have a rear hitch on the trailer and carry about 110# of bikes and carrier on this 2" receiver.

In the future, I will be towing a motorcyle trailer from this 2" receiver at the rear of the 3400. Anticipated hitch weight will be approximately 160#. This is within the guess-a-mate number of under 200# that has been mentioned about added weight on the back of the Montana. The trailer with MC and bikes will weight about 1250#. I will still be under my GCVWR, under on GAWR of the 3400 axles, under on the GAWR's on the truck, and actually a little lighter on the GVWR for the truck - more weight behind the 3400 axles yeilds less weigh on the pin.

Rick,

I have always wondered if someone who adds to a DOT-certified frame has been in contact with lawyers.

Keystone says the Monty isn't made to have a hitch. It may be the biggest reason they don't have a bumper.

I know that loads of folks who buy rigs with bumpers will go on to add a hitch, (if it's not built-in, so they can carry more stuff,) and I know that I'd love one.

Is there a chance that adding such a thing to the frame will somehow make you an outlaw?

Do you worry about warranty issues?

And how the heck are you going to maneuver that monster if you get off the Interstates?

Just wondering.

Steve

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by Dean A Van Peursem

The length measurement needs to include where the measurement is being taken to have any real validity.

My Terry 29R was 32.6 feet long from the front ball hitch to the rear bumper..but the box was 29 feet.Unfortunately I had to tow the entire camper. not just the box.I would be interested in knowing what they measure to come up with the length..all I know is that mine is 39.1 feet long and that is what I have to fit into my driveway or a campsite..It would help if they would say from where to where that spec measurement is taken..it would be even better if they measured the entire camper from the most forward point to the most rear point..that is what we have to park... A side note . On our 1200 mile trip we saw all brands and types of campers towing all kinds of things behind them.. Trailers, boats, other campers. it was unbelievable.

[Montana_1240]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa


A side note . On our 1200 mile trip we saw all brands and types of campers towing all kinds of things behind them.. Trailers, boats, other campers. it was unbelievable.

Rich,

I hear ya.

I’m still just curious whether anyone who adds to a frame on a DOT-Certified RV is violating something.

Just because it CAN be done, doesn’t mean it SHOULD be done.

Plus, aren’t some states down on folks towing multiple thingies?

I asked him, because I just figured that someone who's done/doing it would know.

Steve

[mobilrvn]

Gee, back in my lawyer days, if I had known that there were so many lawsuits just waiting out there for me with overloaded rigs (or not), and people willing TO ADMIT THAT THEY WERE IN THE WRONG OR THOUGHT THAT THEY MAY BE WRONG, I wouldn't have retired. Regardless of what you weigh or in the case of most of you, what you guess you may weigh, DON'T EVERY SAY OUTLOUD THAT YOU WERE/MAYBE OVERWEIGHT. The other guys lawyer will be counting your money--and if you know, maybe your insurance won't cover you. It bothers me what you throw out as illegal or legal, but especially illegal, when truely most of us don't really know, but a lawyer will make it difficult for you, even if you are right, and more importantly, he will make it bad for me and the rest of us!

[Montana_1240]

MoBill,

As we have all been made overly aware of…It doesn’t necessarily matter what’s LEGAL, and what’s ILLEGAL.

What seems to matter is WHO’S GOT THE MOOLAH!

I dare say that the process of certifying a rig for a certain set of specifications, with a gummint agency means something to other gummint agencies…For instance, the courts.

Maybe I’ve watched too many of the Discovery Channel’s investigation shows, where they delve deeply into the minutiae of evidence after some heinous act or malfeasance. Everything, from the reports of on-the-scene-witnesses and participants, to the metallurgical analyses of parts involved is discussed and raked over the coals to gain an explanation for the event.

I can just see some zealous investigator going along the scene, where some fifth-wheel, replete with TV, went over the edge of a windy mountain road, even though the guard rails should have contained any vehicle of legal weight, picking up every item scattered during the wreck, to weigh them all, and determine the rig broke through because it was too heavy, or some such result.

Not to mention the companies with deep pockets that would inevitably be called into the case because they tend to simply settle and move on. They’d want to divest themselves of blame by pointing out the weight placards, and showing off their DOT Certification, explaining how that since the frame had been adulterated, the case doesn’t involve them.

And the Rver’s insurance company will be so eager to dump him, (just as they are the survivors and victims of Katrina,) that his head would spin!

Ignorance of the above doesn’t excuse anyone.

And inside all of it, no matter whose side, will be lawyers.

Lawyers. Gotta love ‘em.

You may well have retired too early. We Baby Boomers are retiring and buying RVs at an ever-increasing rate!

Curious minds wanna know about this practice.


Steve

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Thanks for the info Rick, Rich and Don.

As far as taking chances I think we all ought to try to minimize them as much as possible but if we don't want to take any chances we would not even take our RV on the road. There are so many uncontrolled variables when one addresses road safety that it is mind boggling. We cannot control what the other drivers are doing and that is big variable. Road conditions, weather, temperature, allertness, reaction speed at any given moment, visibility, road speed, lane on the Interstate, time of day, day of the week. The speedometer may be able to register 120 MPH but that doesn't mean it's safe to drive at that speed. I'd have to venture a guess that typically a RV running at 55 MPH in the right lane is probably safer than one running at 65MPH in the middle lane independant of whether or not all the specs are being met. Just too many independant and dependant variables to make black and white judgements. I'm more concerned about careless driving than anything else. Not all variables can be controlled so we just have to use the best common sense we can muster up.

I am curious if there are any US members on this list who have run into trouble in the US with the so called "weight police". In the state of Washington they do not want us RV'ers in the scale area at all. I've pulled equipment trailers cross country loaded, pushing GCVW's of 20,000 lbs and in many cases have never stopped at a DOT scale the whole trip even if they were open. They are mostly after the commercial, haul for hire folks, not us recreational drivers. In fact we RV'ers are considered Beer Money if we do pull into the scale. At least in the states I have been hauling loads in. This may be a Western states culture. I refuse to be a prisoner of a guilt, fear or risk avoidance complex. The risk is high at half the rated towing capacities. Otherwise, we should just stay in bed.

[rickfox]

Good Morning Steve,

The pluses and minus' of putting a receiver on the rear of a Monty has been discussed many times on this site. For the most part, I believe Keystone has admitted that such a hitch can be placed on the back of the Montana - especially if it is installed by them.

The problem in installing the hitch is because the Montana is designed with a full coverage rear endcap. The endcap was not designed to specially exclude the installation of the hitch. Montana's issues deal with the complexity in installing the hitch, and the "crazy" things people might or are likely to do if they are able to connect something onto that hitch - if something bad can happen, John Q. Public will find a way!

With regard to making modifications to a frame, we all have done that to our TV's when we installed our hitches. Technically, any hole drilled anywhere in the frame is a modification to that frame. With respect to placing a hitch at the rear of the Monty, the issue is whether or not that modification contributed to something else happening.

As you are aware, the 60 gal. fresh water tank is at the rear of the 3400, and when fully loaded will add 500# to the rear of the unit. A half full tank and a 200# loaded hitch is minimally different. Other manufacturer's are aware of this and do in fact offer rear hitches as options.

But what happens if you place a 500# hitch load back there and try to haul a 3,000# boat, or a 3500# car? Bad things I'm sure! And Keystone does not want to promote the possibility by placing such a connection back there, and then not be able to control what gets connected. Their response to me was, if you do it, you're on your own. Warranty issues that can be reasonably attributed to placing that hitch back there will be rejected. Warranty issues that can not be reasonably attributed to the added hitch will be handled.

With respect to handling/driving/legal issues, all states have laws regarding "triple towing". If you follow the laws, you will be legal.

No, you can not easily back up. Yes, it is relatively easy to maneuver when going forward. And, as I mentioned before, I will be within specs on all weights. As such, I believe I will be as legal and safe as anybody, and more so than alot of idiots I see out there on the road.

[Cat320]

Richfaa..."I inquired as to how the 06 3400 was listed as 37.3 in length, the 07 3400 listed as 38.4 in length and mine is 39.1 in length..Is that an average length and do they change sizes during the year. I did not expect a answer to that and got none. I also thought that the stated pin weight was a bit low at 1975 with a GVWR of 13,975 for 14% of GVWR but Mark says no it is actually 17% of GVWR .

Based on the "Spec Sheet" I got from the factory, here are some possible answers:

37.3' is called "Exterior Length."
38.4' is called "Exterior Length Cap to Bumper."
39.1' probably includes the ladder.

The pw of 1975 (1980 actually) is 17% of the shipping weight...(17% x 11650). If it was 17% of the GVWR, as Mark said, it would be 2375 (17% x 13975). As you said, 2375 seems to be a more realistic weight for a rig of this size...but that would put the 3/4s even more over weight, and they want to keep it as light as possible.

[Montana Sky]

My 3400RL is 39'7" from kingpin to ladder. Remember that mine is a '04 model and has the extended kingpin. My kingpin weight as the coach was w/ all the options I ordered came across the scale at 1,720 lbs empty.

[rickfox]

This has been one of the better discussions!

[richfaa]

A lot of us here on this forum have been Rv'ing for awhile and we understand these "listed" weight and length issues.Cat320 your assumptions are I am sure correct,,as I mentioned the listed length of my 29R Terry was the box length not the total length. My concern is for those folks who may not have the benefit of a forum such as this and would trust in the listed spec's. Why would the average person have reason to believe that the manufactures would not provide accurate information that is so critical.In my opinion the manufactures should be required to provide accurate information so the buyer could make the proper choices.As long as marketing and Sales have a higher priority than Engineering and design there is not much chance for change. At least we can help folks who tune in here..

[Montana_1240]

Rick,

Well, I can only cite the FAQ about Monties, and how it’s not designed to have a hitch.

quote:http://keystonerv.com/media/pdf/faq.pdf

Q-Can I install a bike rack or hitch to the rear bumper or frame of my Keystone product?
The bumpers/frames of Keystone products were not designed to accommodate this type of accessory installation.

And then there’s MIMF2, working for Lippert, which makes the Monty’s frames, when asked about the feasibility of installing a motorcycle carrier….

quote:

http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...ad.php?t=15814

Gentlemen,

Here is a suggestion that none of you may want to hear.

Trade the Monty in for a Raptor! With a ramp and inside storage, it would be like driving your bike right into the garage at home.

And, oh ya', buy the wife a motorcycle too, and park both of them in there. Then, have fun and don't worry about what you may have to do to a frame to carry a motor cycle.

Of course, the only draw back is that due to the larger coach and 1800 more lbs, you might have to use a dually truck. But, that is s minor technicality.

I haven’t drilled a hole in my frame. I wouldn’t drill holes in my frame to add something that will change the engineering loads of the certified frame. It was just that that I questioned.

I’m just picky like that.

I know that people will find a way to “do something.” I was just wanting to find out whether those who have “done something” have thought out the ramifications of their actions.

Seems to me that what I’ve said is dead on. I still wonder what will happen if an incident occurs that would bring the modifications to light, or perhaps a warranty claim that is expensive, and would be easily denied due to said modifications.

If people want to alter what they chose, so be it. Their choice. I just wouldn’t do it because I think that the experts say it shouldn’t be done. And if it shouldn’t be done, it will screw up a warranty claim.

I wouldn’t do that to myself.

Besides, even if you can maneuver that kluge, I have enough trouble with just the Monty on my hitch, if there’s even a slight lack of wide open frontier to back into.

So I won’t be following you into that territory. For all the reasons stated above.

Which, by the by, doesn’t stop you from doing whatever you please, now that you say you’ve thought it out. I just saw what looked like someone who may have been taking a chance he wasn’t sure of. I see I was wrong.

Good Luck,
Steve

[Driftwoodgal]

Just curious if Keystone posts false information to the consumer isn't that false advertising? Wouldn't this leave them out on a limb to possibly be named in a lawsuit along with the person that has a wreck and is sued by someone?

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Driftwoodgal:

I'm curious, do we know that Keystone has published false information anywhere? The length oddity is not one that can be nailed down until we know how they measured it or from what point to what point. My observation is that there is a deliberate ambiguety in some of the specs to avoid legal liability. I may be wrong on that.

However, the lack of adequate detailed information in the Montana Owners manual I think is a bit negligent. I am having difficulty thinking of any other mass produced or production product that is supported by such a poor operators manual. IMHO, I consider a $40K to $50K product an expensive product that probably should have owners documentation specific to the configuration by serial number. A general operators manual for multiple models just doesn't cut it for me. However, I don't think Keystone will change that situtation until enough owners complain and future buyers quit buying. As long as there are buyers for all production, why change?

[Driftwoodgal]

Dean,

I put that little word if in front of Keystone. I am new to all of this and will not comment on the weight or tow vehicle thing again until I understand it better. I will find out information regarding what the police will possibly do to you in California, if you are over weight, as I have a friend that is a CHIPS Supervisor. I am also going to contact a friend that works for TX Department of Transportation to see what she says. Both of these people have FW and travel in them a bunch. I will post the information when I have it and people can use the information if they find it helpful, or just ignore it.

I do know that we measured the length of our 3400 and came up with 38' 4" several times. This was from the front of the hitch to the back of the ladder. We have the standard hitch.

As for being wrong.... hubby tells me that I am lots of times. I just smile and wait for the times I can say I told you so Of course I don't get to do that very often.

Colleen

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Collen:

I understand and thanks for pursuing the CA and TX info. I will read any reponse provided with much interest. I was just curious IF we had a definitive piece of data where it could be proved that Keystone is lying. I don't know of any as of yet. My only beef is the lack of clarity in what little is provided. I again repeat, that ambiguity is open to interpetation and therefore probably desireable from a Keystone liability point of view. When one considers the liability that an RV manuafacturer has everyday with units all over the roads, I easily could see them being a little gun shy. I wouldn't want to pay for their legal consulting bill or for their liability insurance policy. I wonder how much of the list price is caused by their liability costs? Maybe I don't want to know. :-)

However, the lack of clarity may also create a liability.

[richfaa]

I am sure that all their PR has been reviewed by the legal staff.I would not call it false information rather not enough information or unclear information or even information that the average consumer does not understand. Driftwoodgal measures 38.4 with the standard hitch, Montana sky 39.7 with the extended hitch, Me 39.1 with the Mor-Ryde hitch pin.Driftwoodgal's measurement makes sense to me as it is taken on a OEM unit.Perhaps if the manufacture could be clear as to how the spec's are taken the problem would be solved..The manufacturer knows exactly how they come up with the spec's and if you ask them they can explain it.It is just that we don't know and that could cause us to make errors.

[Driftwoodgal]

Motego Bay along with the Hitchhiker where at the top of the list when we were looking at trailers. Part of the reason, but not the only one, we came back to the 3400 was because of its weight. If the numbers aren't correct then it does make a huge difference to us as I have read the boards and been concerned about weights.

I have joked about all of things that we have in our rig but almost everything we have is in the cargo area except for light pots and pans, four sets of plastic eating ware and, cooking utensils. I haven't put anything in the overhead cabinets except toilet paper and paper towels.

Reading this thread has brought out some posts about putting water into your water tank and things in the back of the rig to balance the pin weight on the truck. I would love to hear more about that if isn't off topic of David and Jo-Anna's original question. Get another truck isn't an option, trying to stay within weight limits is if I have true numbers to work with. If not then maybe we will be selling the Montana before it loses anymore value.

Dean,

I guess the only proof would be the weight tickets that are in the hands of Montana owners that have weighed their rigs when they are dry. Those tickets might or might not dispute the numbers listed in the brochures I just can't understand why an airline can know their cargo limits and when weight has to shifted. I have been on a plane where volunteers were asked to move to the back of the plane for balance. No male volunteers got up so another lady and I went to the back of the plane. So if weight is so important I would hope that the infomation that is given to consumers in our paper work is accurate. It seems to me by what you all are posting it is VERY important.

Colleen

[richfaa]

Colleen, The only sure way for you to know exactly what your 3400 weighs is to take it to a scale and weigh it. The listed spec weights are average and all manufacturers do the same thing.Your actual weight may be within the average weight, maybe not. It is very doubtful , although it can be done , that you will overload your 3400.It is my personal opinion that we should know what all the critical weights of our camper/truck are and the only way to do that is to weigh them..And yes it is VERY important.

[David and Jo-Anna]

I followed up on Rich's call to Montana earlier this week by calling customer service this morning to find out more info on their GVWR and option weights. I ended up talking to a fellow named Mike who was on the sales side of things. I stressed to him my concern about the low net cargo capacity printed on the labels on the 3400--the inside label [which takes the 13,975# GVWR, subtracts a UVW of 11,900, 498# for full water, and 60# propane, leaving the figure of 1517#, less dealer installed options], and the outside label that says the weight of cargo is not to exceed 1517#.

After stressing my concern that this low cargo capacity could preclude me from buying many of the Montana options, he acknowledged that Montana has heard that message from others and is trying to do something about it. Montana is currently negotiating with Dexter to try to get them to build 6500# axles for Montana--apparently no one currently builds 6500# axles. If they can't get 6500# axles, they may start putting in 7000# axles sometime around next January. At that time, they might look to bump the GVWR up by around 500#--they are reluctant to go higher for fear that a higher weight would make owners nervous about whether their trucks are big enough--no surprise.

The clear message I got from the call is that Montana is most likely to do something about its low GVWR and carrying capacity if people keep pinging on them about these low numbers. I'd suggest we take any opportunity, including the fall rally, to keep pinging on them to raise those weight ratings.

In the course of my call, I got the following info on weight options that I wanted to verify: hi-gloss (250#), dual pane windows (400#), slide room awnings (70# for the 3400), second AC (85#), and generator (350#). The number for slide room awnings seems low to me-does anyone have a really solid number on what the four awnings in the 3400 collectively weigh? What about his other numbers?

P.S. The 3400 I looked at yesterday did not have hi-gloss, dual pane, 2d AC, generator or slide room awnings yet had the same 11,900# number on its inside label that others with different options have reported. Confirms to me that that number is just a number for a "typical" 3400, not the number for any particular unit.