Frame Problems with 06 Montana - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

8e3k0 · 09-14-2009, 07:35 AM

What is their Q.I. program? Are the welds x-rayed? Any destructive testing done? Can you imagine our automotive industry, the petrochemical industry, etc. if they had these low standards for quality. Vehicles would be falling apart, and plants would be blowing up! I cannot beleive that through design and construction they can continue to build and repeat weakenesses that allow failures. This isn't new technology as 53 foot highway trailers are built to haul some ultra heavy loads and you do not see failures of this type; so why can't the RV industry pick up their rate of success??

rickfox · 09-14-2009, 10:48 AM

I talked to Lippert today. The first thing they say they need are photos of the under side of the frame, which means the fiberglass under the overhang that also extends down to the bottom of the front will need to be removed.

It seems I will be able to do that without a lot of difficulty. As soon as the rain stops here in TX I will get that task underway. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), I would have to tow it over 100 miles to take it to a dealer. No telling how much additional damage could be inflicted, how much it might cost to have some dealer do the work, and how experienced they might be.

Although Lippert pretty much indicated they would do nothing under warranty, they said they would analyze the photos, and provide repair advice on how to correct the problem. If broken welds and insufficient metal are the problem, I am quite handy with a MIG welder and metal in general, and believe I would do a better repair job than most. Since I own it, I'm sure I would take more interest in doing the work right!

We will see what happens.

dsprik · 09-14-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by rickfox

If broken welds and insufficient metal are the problem, I am quite handy with a MIG welder and metal in general, and believe I would do a better repair job than most. Since I own it, I'm sure I would take more interest in doing the work right!

Don't advertise too much, Rick. You could have a bunch of MOC customers. Then again... Might be a new career for you - repairing Montana frames???

richfaa · 09-14-2009, 12:29 PM

No I did not say that. On the tour of the plant we were told that frames were built to the manufacturers spec's. Lippert makes frames for many different manufacturers. I also do not know about any manufacturers QI program. I do not know why frames fail. I do not know what the manufacturers specs are. I do not know if the frames are X rayed. I do not know how 53 foot highway trailers are built. I do not know why the RV industry does what they do. When we went to the Lippert plant that is near the plant that made the Big Sky we were told that that plant was a fabrication facility that would fabricate items to specifications.. They did not repair frames. I repeat what I was told.....

8e3k0 · 09-14-2009, 06:03 PM

Rich, I don't think any one of us are pointing fingers; just asking questions that someone may be able to answer, like a quality control rep from the the frame manufacturing company or Keystone themselves. Another area that bothers me is the size of hole that is actually cut into the frame to accept the slide cylinders with no reinforcement around that hole within a 10 inch frame. Many other companies are now using 12 inch frames to accept holes of this size and yet stand up to the twist, torque and stress.
I know if I was in the business of frame building and the failure was that high I would soon be out of business either because of reputation, repetitive warranty work, or lawsuits. Very very puzzling??

ols1932 · 09-14-2009, 11:03 PM

If only those who have frame flex problems could be close enough to Truck Builders in Marion, IA. Magnificent work ethic. I've never met people who had their customer's interest so much at heart as this company.

Orv

richfaa · 09-15-2009, 02:39 AM

We don't know if frame failures are high. We read about failures on forums that report primarily problems. You would think that there would be law suites or recalls if it was a widespread issue.. There is not.......Why???????

SlickWillie · 09-15-2009, 03:31 AM

I think the frame problem mirrors the tire problem. No one rides in the fivers, so chances of severe accidents (deaths or serious injury) involved are remote. I know when we had a blow out, I had no problem controlling the RV. It just doesn't make since to hire an attorney when you can handle the costs of repairs much cheaper than hiring an attorney. I can't see an attorney taking a suit on contingency just for frame failure. There is just not enough money there. As to a recall, we've seen how many tire failures we had reported on here. Take a look at the NHTSA site and see how many have filed a complaint there. Seems it was 10 or so last time I looked. That number will never get a recall.

rickfox · 09-15-2009, 03:35 AM

Gee Rich, I thought you knew a lot more - just kidding.

Well, its stopped raining. I should have some pics later today. We'll then find out what Lippert has to say. I hope the problem can be easily resolved.

richfaa · 09-15-2009, 04:10 AM

I am no expert on anything and I ask questions to find things out. We are fortunate enough to be able to go to the fall rally every year and all the vendors are there. I have a list of questions every year.Lippert and Dexter are high on my "question" list. Example... We are seeing loose U bolts nuts. We learn that the torque requirements from dexter are 45 to 65lbs. So what do they set them at the factory???? and why... Lippert...IF something has gone wrong with my frame after about 30K and 3 years am I to understand that we can expect frame problems after 3 years and 30K miles. If so I will insist that Lippert make such a public statement. At this point I would not buy a Keystone product with the frame spec's keystone applies.

Countryfolks · 09-15-2009, 08:42 AM

You may want to ask Keystone the same questions. FWIW, I think Keystone removes the axle assembly at the beginning of their process so they can do some stuff on the bottom of the frame. Lippert is probably going to say they design the frame to the customers specs, then the customer [sometimes] change their unit design without considering frame specs.

PSFORD99 · 09-15-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by rickfox

I talked to Lippert today. The first thing they say they need are photos of the under side of the frame, which means the fiberglass under the overhang that also extends down to the bottom of the front will need to be removed.

It seems I will be able to do that without a lot of difficulty. As soon as the rain stops here in TX I will get that task underway. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), I would have to tow it over 100 miles to take it to a dealer. No telling how much additional damage could be inflicted, how much it might cost to have some dealer do the work, and how experienced they might be.

Although Lippert pretty much indicated they would do nothing under warranty, they said they would analyze the photos, and provide repair advice on how to correct the problem. If broken welds and insufficient metal are the problem, I am quite handy with a MIG welder and metal in general, and believe I would do a better repair job than most. Since I own it, I'm sure I would take more interest in doing the work right!

We will see what happens.

I would not hesitate to repair it myself if you have the knowledge and the equipment.I have been in steel fabrication my entire working life ( nearly 42 years ), those frames are not steel fabrication, I do not know what you would call them. I am surprised there are not more failures. The welds are horrendous to say the least.. After reading some of this I am tempted to remove the plastic around my pin box, and just beef it up to prevent any problems.

richfaa · 09-15-2009, 01:49 PM

I wish some of the experts we have here could be at the rally and ask these folks the proper questions. I do not know one weld from another and have no clue as to steel fabrication.

rickfox · 09-15-2009, 02:26 PM

I have now removed the lower cover of the overhang that also extends on down to cover the bottom of the trailer front. It took about 2.5 hours to remove. The hardest part was pulling the front cap bottom forward enough to get the one piece lower cover off.

Things are as I expected. The passenger side wall that protrudes out along side the overhang is supported to the trailer frame by a 4' long piece of steel that is approximately 3" wide and 1/8" thick. The steel plate is welded lenghtwise to the bottom side of the frame so that is sticks out about 1 1/2" beyond the frame. The outside wall then rests on the resulting flange. Screws are then run up through the steel and into the bottom aluminum structure of the wall. The passenger side wall is supported to the frame in the same manner.

This 1/8" steel plate is welded to the bottom of the frame with 1" welds every 8" or so. There are a total of 7 welds that show on the bottom. There appears to be welds on the top side of this plate also, but these are obscured by the wall sitting on the plate. I have photos that I can post if someone wants to view, and will be sending them to Lippert tomorrow.

Cutting to the chase, 5 of the 7 welds visible from the bottom passenger side have broken. It is appears that some of these broken welds were "cold welds". In 4 places, the 1/8" plate has completely broken through. It suggests that this 1/8 thick plate is of insufficient thickness to support the load of the wall when the trailer is hitched.

On the driver's side, 3 of the 7 welds visible from the bottom were broken. At least 2 of these welds appear to be "cold welds". The 1/8" steel plate on the drivers side was completely broken through in 2 places.

As a result of this damage, when the trailer weight is transferred from the landing gear to the pin box, the floor inside the bedroom wardrobe near the passenger side wall appears to rise up about 1 1/2", and the wardrobe floor near the drivers side appears to move up perhaps a 1/2". However, what is really occurring is that both the passenger and driver side walls are drooping because they are no longer adequately supported by the frame. Another result is that the thin wall that separates the 4 drawers from the hanging cloths wardrobe area (in the 3400RL) is compressed until it crushes at the bottom and then buckles into the hanging cloths area. The drawers also no longer latch closed.

I have not completed an exhaustive search of the rest of the underside frame, but there does not appear to be any other damage. A general observation is that the welding was not performed as well as I expected. There appears to be a fair amount of undercut welds, cold welds, some welds that seem to be incomplete, numerous wiskers, and quite a bit of splatter.

I hope to get guidance from Lippert on the proper repairs within the next several days, but I suspect that I will have to completely remove these steel plates, and then weld back on 1/4" thickness material. I will then also bead weld this material rather than spot weld. I also plan to generally clean up the varous other welds which appear to be suspect.

My general assessment is that the wall supports have failed for some reason. Perhaps one of the welds broke, thus slowly causing a domino effect. Perhaps the material used should have been thicker. Perhaps the roads I have been traveling down were worse than the frame was designed for.

I guess I'm lucky that there doesn't appear to be any "major damage", no one was hurt, we made it home before the problem was discovered, and I am a good welder!

dsprik · 09-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Rick, that is an awesome description and it makes me just a little apprehensive... I have a 2007 3400. I think they changed the structural dimensions. Probably didn't change the manufacturing materials and procedures, I would guess?

exav8tr · 09-15-2009, 04:14 PM

Not being a structural engineer or welder or manufacturing technician, just a retired Air Force medic and retired Alaskan Bush Pilot, it would appear that a solid hitch and a solid hitch pin make for a lot of stress on that front compartment. My first year of towing we had the Lippert hitch pin and a Valley hitch, we then added a MorRyde hitch pin after about 4 months of towing. The second year we added the Trailersaver Air Hitch. After two and a half years of fulltiming I can see no signs of separation in the front compartment. I’m not saying that Keystone or Lippert can’t do a better job up front, only that I feel I have done everything possible to preclude this from happening, if not, I guess that is what my extended warranty is for. I think the air ride hitches may preclude some of this. Comments????

PSFORD99 · 09-15-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

I wish some of the experts we have here could be at the rally and ask these folks the proper questions. I do not know one weld from another and have no clue as to steel fabrication.

Rich, welds can be deceiving good ones can look a little sloppy, and a bad one can look real good, but have no penetration. If I had welders welding like I see on these frames, they would be looking for a new source of income. We hire a lot of welders that the only experience they had was welding small parts together, you know flower pot stands or such and the next thing you know you tip it over and one of the welds break, well that is what these welds on these frames remind me of. We take these welders and work with them ,and usually they come around to be a pretty good welder. When you are welding bridge railing,hand railing or safety treatments they have to be sound welds. I guess the RV industry does not think that way. I guess its all about production, not quality

Tom S. · 09-16-2009, 01:08 AM

Rick, Thanks for the detailed description and please keep us posted on what you find out!

richfaa · 09-16-2009, 01:37 AM

PSFORD99..I am going to use your post as guidance when I talk to these folks.I can draw on your expertise. One of the great things about this forum is that we have experts in most every field so it is hard to fool us.

Delaine and Lindy · 09-16-2009, 04:33 AM

Phil I agree we are on our second Trailer Saver Air ride hitch. Its amazing how much stess is taking from the Frame of the 5th wheel. When towing with the TS air ride hitch and looking in the rear view mirror the 5er looks like it floating on air. And Trailer Saver is very easy to deal with. The TS I'm using now I ordered over the phone and had it drop shipped to a local Tire shop and I installed it in about a hour. Had to drill 8 1/2" holes in the flat steel plate thats goes from frame to frame. However the TS 3 by Trailer Saver mounts in most regular bed rails such as Reese, Valley/Huskey. I will say I have never seen a 5th wheel have Frame problems while using a Trailer Saver Air ride hitch. I really don't understand why so many Montana's have frame issues. The Cambridge by Keystone was a very heavy 5th wheel and we never had a frame issue, but it rode on a Trailer Saver Air ride hitch and when we sold it the Truck and Trailer Saver went with it. I might add the TS 3 was used in 3 different Trucks including the Chevy Kodiak 4500. GBY...

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