How many leafs in your spring?

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

It would seem to me that adding addititional weight carrying capacity to a F250 would increase towing safety even though it doesn't change the GVWR on the door sticker. Isn't safety the real bottom line issue here?

Of course safety is a primary concern...however in our litigous society, the legal ramifications of being in an accident, over weight and at fault are also a major concern.

[sreigle]

Art, I no longer have a Ford so cannot tell you how many leaves ours had. I do know, however, that the "standard" F250 spring pack has one less leaf than the standard F350 spring pack. However, if your F250 has the Camper Option... not the towing option but the option intended for a slidein truck camper, then you have the same spring pack as the F350. If I recall, that was 5 leaves while the standard for the F250 is 4 leaves. When we had a 2005 F250, ours had 4 leaves. We had a neighbor at Tybee Island with a new 2005 F250 with the Camper Option. His had 5 leaves, same as our 2003 F350 had. I know the F350 SRW and F250 use the same brakes and axles, just a different standard spring pack. Our F350 was a single rear wheel. I'm not sure if the F350 dually uses the same springs.

[billhoover]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Art, I do know, however, that the "standard" F250 spring pack has one less leaf than the standard F350 spring pack. However, if your F250 has the Camper Option... not the towing option but the option intended for a slidein truck camper, then you have the same spring pack as the F350.

I'm no longer a Ford guy and don't know all the specifics. However from what you have said above, his F250, if it has the Camper Option, is the 'same' as an F350. If it is the same, it would no longer be an F250, but an F350. Since Ford say it is still an F250 there must be some other differences.

[Art-n-Marge]

If this topic is still open, I finally figured it out!!! It took two dealerships and some persistent investigation and here are the end results:

1. I can and intend to change my F-250 to an F-350 for capacity, comfort and safety.
2. As many have confirmed, the only difference between the two for the model year 2006 IS the number of leaf springs. The F-350 has an extra pair of load bearing springs that increases the GVWR. Thanks for membership confirming this by counting your springs and posting.
3. I did not originally buy the F-350 because at the time the particular F-250 cost $thousands less because of eligible rebates and the published numbers of my RV were met by the F250 anyway. If I had known what I know now, I would STILL do what I am planning to do because it saves me about way over $3000 or $3500.
4. The cost for adding the springs is about $175 for Ford parts including some possible additional hardware. That's it! I plan to provide the labor myself. A maybe a six pack or two of good beer if I get help.
5. If there were NO rebates the price difference for a comparably equipped 2006 Ford F-250 versus F-350 was about $600. This is about 4 times the parts price I listed above but Ford has to add labor and markup. Most folks would just pay this and not have to go through the exercise I did. But for me, refer to the savings by sticking with the F-250.
6. The biggest problem on why I had to do this is that Keytone's specs for the pin weight was off by A LOT. I highly recommend everyone measure the actual weight of their rigs and I am afraid you will find Keytone lists much lower weight (only 10%) whereby this and other forums suggest EVERYONE estimate at least 15% or as high as 20% of the RV's GVWR because of the way 5'ers carry the load. The 5er wheels are set pretty far back and adding a second AC, or Washer/Dryer or carrying full closets or filling up the forward storage areas will quickly add to the front end weight of the Monty.
7. Adding a camper option to an F-250 does turn it into an F-350 but also includes some other hardware to support the Camper. The suspension change is just one part of it. On an F-350 they don't have to add the springs but they still add the camper hardware.
8. Adding heavier capacity tires does not increase the GVWR of a TV.
9. After market Air bags, springs or other similar ride or load improvements might claim to increase load capacity but do not. I checked at least 5 sites including several of the ones members listed and found the fine print on ALL of them claiming not to exceed your vehicle's GVWR. I believe it's a liability issue. For Aftermarket Leaf Spring offerings they stated how much their capacity was, but one would have to calculate the gain - I gave up on that option since it turned out to be a far more expensive endeavor.
10. The Ford Parts personnel said unequivocally, that adding these additional leaf springs increases the GVWR as if I had purchased an F-350. I do NOT plan to recertify, change the emblems or get a new door sticker for this. Since this is only for me I will keep all the receipts and diagrams for what I've done for record's sake. But I know I will be safe and compliant and that's what counts.

This has been a very enlightening experience. I am grateful for some of your support, arguments for and against, and your experiences. They have been very helpful.

Now stay tuned for when I get this done. Then I don't have to hold back on any gear. Since this has taken so long to analyze other higher priority projects have caught up.

[richfaa]

Good Job. Homwework and research leads to knowledge.

[SlickWillie]

Good job Art!

[billhoover]

Art-n-Marge...I commend you for doing your research and really checking out this issue. However, you still have an F250...you can do what ever you want to it, put what ever mods on it you want to...you still have an F250, a 3/4 ton truck. The only way you can make it an F350 is submit the required paperwork and try to get the manufacturer to get the GVWR changed, other wise...you have an F250.

Good luck.

[sreigle]

I agree with you and did pretty much the same research, plus some discussion with a friend who is a retired Ford diesel truck engineer. However, I would not go so far as to say it turns it into an F350 simply because the stickers, badges, and title say F250. However, I do know it provides the same ability to carry weight.

Airbags provide additional suspension, same as adding springs. They can be used to level the rig when sag occurs. Additional leaves in the springs do essentially the same thing except you don't have to air them up and remove air when you remove the weight.

I am surprised at the price they quoted you for the springs. Apparently things have changed since I checked into it back around 2005 or so. At that time they told me I could not purchase just the additional leaves. I'd have to replace the entire spring pack with the heavier units. That was going to be over $1000 for parts alone. So I went with the airbags. I'm glad to hear they now have the additional leaves available as an add on. That makes more sense.

[Art-n-Marge]

LOL Sreigle.

That's why I typically check, recheck, then get second opinions. I went to the dealer closest to my house and found that the extra load-bearing springs will cost $107 each not $63 like I was told by another dealer. There are also an additional number of bumpers, brackets, nuts and bolts, totally about $300. I am afraid that I am not done with my research, because now I need to check my several sources and compare prices. They are that different! Oh how the wheels go round and round.

I am going to go dormant on this topic. I will not be beat by this, but I will take some more time, get the things I need, install them properly and eventually solve my problem. I hope the next time I comment on this I will turn this into a campfire topic for everyone to have a good laugh about.

[sreigle]

Please let us know how it turns out. I no longer have the Ford and have a 1 ton already so don't need to upgrade the springs. However, I'm still interested in that topic and there may be others here who would consider the same upgrade if yours turns out well at reasonable cost. Thanks for the information.

[SlickWillie]

Art, not all dealers are equal in price. Many have a discounted price they sell at, or at least I have found that with GM parts, especially if you order online.

[Art-n-Marge]

TaDaaa..... I have completed the leaf spring addition and added a new topic with a link to the pictures of the work that was done in the Forum topic "Additions and Modifications".

To reiterate, I added a single overload leaf, spacers and the brackets/bumpers to support it on either side of the truck. This equates to an F-250 spring set.

In order to support this new weight rating, I will be adding the 18" wheels and tires replacing the 17" wheels and tires. I will have the Ford dealer recheck and recalibrate the tranny and speedometer for the larger tires then the job will be complete.

Yes, it's still an F-250 label, but F-350 capable. If it bothers me, I will recertify the truck to make it a true F-350. This encompasses a getting a new VIN and stickers. WHAT? You might ask. You'll need a new VIN? Yes, I will. There is a letter in the VIN that identifies an F-250 versus an F-350, to denote the higher GVWR.

Learning can be fun.

[KathyandDave]

Persistence pays off. Congratulations!

[Hooker]

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

If it bothers me, I will recertify the truck to make it a true F-350. This encompasses a getting a new VIN and stickers.

That's what I'd do...then you'll be covered and have a 'real' F350.

[Art-n-Marge]

Charlie, that's a very good point, however I will have a real F-350. Allow me to explain.

Adding the load-bearing spring, now matches an F-350. Adding the larger wheels and tires (and recalibrating for the larger size) will complete the match with a stock F-350 coming off the dealer's lot. Nothing else is needed, however both F-250s and F-350s can add options so they are physically the same. So it won't have the emblems, but emblems have NO affect on weight ratings.

The key is the DMV fees. If you do all the same options on an F-250 suspension to make it equal to an F-350, the difference is the DMV fees. For a customer that wants to continue the F-250 emblem they will get the lesser B pillar label and VIN. DMV registration fees are lower. The advantage being the fees are lower, but they do NOT get the benefits of an F-350 label that allows its label to declare it can carry more weight. However recertifying an F-250 that physically equates to an F-350 is an option that I have not decided to pursue.

The recertification does three things by providing a new B pillar label:

1. Provides new weight ratings. (I happen to have all the documentation on the work done)
2. Provides new tire size requirements to support the new weight. (the new wheels and tires will be the evidence)
3. Changes the VIN to denote the new capability in order to charge more at DMV registration. (oh my, I will only be guilty of not paying the increased DMV fees, because recertification is only required in commercial applications and I am not a commercial application.)

The purpose of the recertification is for the state to gain new funding for a heavier vehicle's capability, to pay for the road wear because of the heavier weight rating. But it's no worse than all the truck's on the road who are exceeding their vehicle's weight rating. But because of the suspension and wheels improvement I won't be exceeding weight.

As far as the truck and I are concerned I have an F-350 and like others in this forum who have done the same, so do they. WHEN it becomes law and we must recertify only will we have to pay higher DMV fees. Until then, I am happy I have a real F-350. I just can't go commercial.

Charlie, I actually appreciate your comments very much. It has given me the opportunity to better explain more of what I found before I started this work and I prefer to do what's right (not be overweight and still be within compliance). I have done what's right in weight capacity and stayed within the letter of the law.

In retrospect, I should have purchased an F-350, but in my case I was lucky enough that the $4000 difference in price tag still saved me money in the long run.

[KathyandDave]

Art, your point about DMV fees is very apt. Recently, I did the "right thing" and increased our registered gross to include the weighed value of the monty, as required by Ontario law. I paid the uptick in registration fees. The bad surprise was that the local toll highway, whose computers suck the registration information from the provincial computers, have assessed us as a heavy commercial multi-unit vehicle and have charged us three times the tolls that we paid previously. Now, we stay off the toll highway, which is unfortunate, since it's the best thing around here and goes directly to our dealer's lot. As you can imagine, I was seriously PO'd at this, but the toll highway is a victory for modern economics and local tax reduction (the money goes to a consortium in Spain). So, as much as you can keep your registration down low, below the radar, you'll save yourself some grief.