Customer Feedback

[8e3k0]

Of the many thousands of Montana units that are sold, a large number of these units end up 2000 miles from the factory and will never see the factory again; like in our situation. Also rallies can be limited because of demographics etc. This is one reason that I say "if these components were correctly installed with care the first time there would be no going back to the Dealer to correct a factory error". If my mechanical apptitude was low our particular unit would be siiting with little to no use. Both my son and I have spent many hours correcting errors, clean ups, and rerouting water and electriacl lines to prevent down time when we are on the road and do not have the access to tools and expertise. As mentioned early; just a basic parts books for the unit would be a wealth of help with schmatics, drawings and parts numbers to order as needed or simply repair as required. When one has to literally hunt for that fuse, plus mislabled switches, tangled up water lines, that scares the heck out of me when I'm out in the wilderness. I am also comparing to a earlier SOB that we bought new in 03 and used extensively for 6 years with not one warranty issue and a true quality of workmanship with extensive follow-up to the customer through their Dealers. Yes, we would have bought their product but they didn't have the plan we wanted. I am not bashing, just comparing and will have a great unit with work by ourselves and the dealer prior to hitting the road for 3 months. If the manufacture is following and taking notes ( as we just can't attand those rallies that are 2000 miles away) and improving as time goes on, the Montana could be one trouble free awesome home on wheels. Ellis

[Desert RVer]

8e3k0,

"Montana could be one trouble free awesome home on wheels" This "vision" is often missed by those who object to complaints expressed by some MOC members. We too are one of those Montana owners over 2000 miles from the factory. It is quite different to deal with less than cooperative dealers, spend countless hours fixing things ourselves versus taking the RV to a rally close by the factory to have things redone to better than new condition. BTW, A failure out in the remote desert can be life threatening.

[simonsrf]

My guess is that RV buyers are very similar to home buyers.

The woman looks at the kitchen, the man looks at the garage. Then, they decide if they can afford it.

Rarely, do they look at the customer service good vs. bad statistics or search for sawdust under the floorboards.

Even high-priced automobiles have lemons that come out of the assembly line. Assembly lines are run by humans. Keystone is just like any other manufacturer, some days they build the perfect unit...and then there are those other days....it's the luck of the draw for the consumer.

Montana is still number one; when the customer is no longer satisfied with the product they build, there will be another "number one" value for the buck.

[richfaa]

DesertRVer said..."BTW, A failure out in the remote desert can be life threatening..."You said it..Been there did that with our "meltdown" in quartsite well before the Jan/ Feb rush of campers. It was only luck and quick thinking that prevented the 3400 from going up in a ball of flames (still had lots of smoke) with Helen still inside. We were told that considering the flash point of low cost Hydraulic fluid we were just "seconds from disaster" Yes I was angry and told Keystone so..In writing. However a call to Team Montana resuted in a massive effort on their part to effect repairs and they did so. Within 24 hours we were back on the road. Being able to have a rally near the factory, service center and vendors once a year is just one of many advantages we have as members of MOC. Not all members can take advantage of that.

We should be able to have good service from a Montana Dealer where ever we may be . We always call The service center first and let them ..pave the way..to the dealer ship. On our recent Spring failure after we had limped into Burnside rv in Mich we called Gary Wheeler)Mor Ryde) because we suspected the failure involved the Mor Ryde system and he was on the phone to the dealership within 15 Mins outlining exactly what he wanted them to do. A call to Keystone got the responce " Whatever you need" (we did not need them)

As for quality control in the RV industry.. from someone who worked in that field for many years..it is..to say he least...not good. However IMO the industry builds a unit the average comsumer will buy and is satisfied with. The truth is that unlike the auto industry there are not enough Rv owers out here to have much of a impact on RV quality. At Least Montana has a large group of owners that they do use as a sounding board.

[soonerhooligan]

Rich and Glen......What has been their response to the Mission tire issue? I have never heard an offical word from Ketstone on this. You guys feel free to correct me on this if you have infomation I don't have. The only thing I ever heard was call "Tireco". I guess a tire fairy came in at night and installed them while Keystone wasn't looking.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

quote:Originally posted by soonerhooligan

Rich and Glen......What has been their response to the Mission tire issue? I have never heard an offical word from Ketstone on this. You guys feel free to correct me on this if you have infomation I don't have. The only thing I ever heard was call "Tireco". I guess a tire fairy came in at night and installed them while Keystone wasn't looking.

They switched brands.
Everyone should keep in mind that Keystone, like any other company, takes bids from many manufacturers/suppliers on most everything they use in their RVs and tires are definitely no exception. When the bidding is completed the winning bidder, in this case Tireco/Mission, get a substantial order for their product.
Sometimes it takes a long period of time before a problem is discovered. Especially so with tires. Back when they first started installing Missions they were building 20+ Montys a day. That's 100 tires a day and that's just the Monty. Now include the Mountaineer, Big Sky and whatever other RV Keystone builds that's one hell of a lot of tires in just ONE day.
It took months for the Mission problem to show itself. Oh sure there were problems almost immediately but at that time there was no way of knowing what exactly was causing the problem. Once Keystone realized the problem was a manufacturer's defect and not user related they took action to correct the situation and switched brands.

BY THE WAY, I was told by a very high ranking individual at Montana that this very forum was a catalyst in bringing this to Montana's and Keystone's attention. When you rely on just a dealer network for information it comes in at a very slow rate. With the MOC, Montana has a constant flow of information coming in everyday from every corner of North America and more importantly from the OWNER's themselves.

Folks, if you really don't believe what Rich, myself and other's are saying than you got to attend the FALL rally. You've got to experience it for yourself. We are pretty much treated like royalty. Keystone, Montana and most of their various suppliers are there. They give seminars to better educate the MOCers. They hang around before and after their seminar taking and asking questions. Quite often they will listen to your problem, accompany you back to your rig and fix the problem FREE.
We are given a special plant tour. To a point we can crawl in and under these rigs. Sometimes, we get to see new products even before the dealers. Your tour guide will be one of the very knowledgeable Montana Territory Reps and not some office clerk.

OK That's enuff for today....

[richfaa]

Ditto What Glenn said. Remember that keystone and MOST other Rv manufacturer's manufacturer nothing. They assemble a RV from vendor provided items. Tireco (mission)had a reimbursement program in effect to address the Tire failure so sure when you called Keystone they told you to contact Tireco. I think that procedure was well outlined here on the forum by those folks who went through it. Most of us because of distance, work, etc will ever get to a Fall Rally and experience the factory tours and meeting the Keystone/Montana folks as well as all the vendors. We who have do try to relate that eperience here on the forum. If you get the chance ty to plan a trip to the fall rally. It is a rewarding experience and you may come away with a better understanding of Keystone/ Montana as well as the RV industry.

[Desert RVer]

What was the solution that Montana/Lippert offered at the forums for the flat plastic cable carriers under ths slides that were breaking?

[Countryfolks]

I don't know what they suggested but most of us repaired them with a metal hinge.

[richfaa]

After Jason Lippert got under a few Montana's and the problems were pointed out I did notice some time later that there had been a change in the way the tray was attached. You would have to look at a older model and a newer model to note the change.... I just got a new Plastic cable tray at the service center last week and noticed that it is a one size fits all. The tray is 50 Inches long with perforations at the screw end that I asume indicate where to cut to match the length of the slide it is being installed on??? We only had one tray to break in 3 years. My guess is that some trays where cut a bit to short or were mixed up on the assembly line at the factory... It is on my list to look for that on the factory tour and ask the question as to where they are cut, who cuts them and how do they know it is going on the proper slide....

Another advantage of going to the fall rally.. You can interrogate the folks who build these things.

[sreigle]

I've been wondering whether they improved the tray or its method of mounting so it wouldn't break so easily. When the rash of failures hit a couple of years ago I ran out and bought hinges, then stored them in the locker thinking when the first tray breaks I'll install the hinges on all. They're still in the locker. They haven't broken yet. Either we've been lucky or they improved them.

[sreigle]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

No DesertRVver. I don't think any of us can provide documented evidence that any specific issue was solved or manufacturing process changed because of what any individual or group of MOC'ers said or did. Those of us who have been to the rallies or have had constructive communications with Keystone Montana know that things we have suggested have happened. Fixes we have suggested have happened.prototypes we have been asked to comment on have come about or never happened... Coincidence... perhaps??? We have seen the highest level of management for Montana and some of the vendors on their hands and knees under our rigs looking a our fixes and taking notes. It is sort of a you got to be there to experience it to have a reasonable understanding.Is it a all possible that a group of thousands of users of a product might be a valuable resourse....could be? ?? Will these things ever be perfect...no..will they ever be the way we think they should be....no. Will they ever make a unit that will completely satisfy me.....never. Part of the successful process is for every MOC'er to contribute constructive input.Like ...this is the problem.. this is how it affects me... here is a solution. Then don't think just because you said it..It will happen... You never know...

I once got an email requesting my phone number, then got a call from Mark Krohl to discuss a suggestion I'd made on this forum. On our 2003 3295RK (early 2003 model) the water pump switch was not accessible when the slides were in the on-the-road position. That meant we could not use the water pump for potty stops. I added our own switch in an accessible location then posted a suggestion. Keystone moved the water pump switch to an accessible location in the late 2003 model 3295RK's. So I KNOW they read this forum. But I have no written documentation.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

It's not just you Steve. I never had a problem with them breaking in both of my Montys. I would also suggest that the problem isn't what some people think it is. Yes we did have numerous members indicate that their's had broken but there were many more members that, like us, did not have any problems.
If I recall Lippert did research the problem and, in some cases, found they were not attached correctly. I do know that Aram also took a very close look.

[Delaine and Lindy]

The Lippert folks were at our Rally in June and as has been stated were all over the place. Weren't many problem as I remember. Most were interested in the Level Up system. We have friends who had the system installed while at the Rally. We also had a Aluminum Wheels crack on our Cambridge 358 and we were taken care of by Keystone. I changed them out to Aluminum Alcoa's. And we have been to the Service center and were well taken care of (Thanks Daryl). As for follow up John Deere always follows up and wants to know if we have any suggestions to make their equipment better. We as RVer's just don't follow up or get upset and just bash the manufactor, which don't work. I really believe the problem is Dealerships, we very seldom go back to a dealership. For some reason they just don't communicate with the manufactors. Because in most cases the first year will be minor things that most can fix themselves and with all the forums someone will have a suggestion or a fix that you can do. I have used Camping World many times and always have gotten good service. And lots of time its the tone of voice that will get you in trouble. GBY....

[Glenn and Lorraine]

10-4 on tone of voice. Sometimes just reading between the lines about how ugly an individual claims he was treated tells the whole story. Working with customers and customer service I have actually hung up on individuals that started out with a bad attitude. It seemed no matter what you say they become irate if it isn't EXACTLY what they wanted to hear.
If you are going to call ANY customer service department always keep one thing in mind, they are human beings and want to be treated as such. If you start out with a bad attitude you will get no where. Never use vinegar to catch flies.

[Desert RVer]

It appears that Keystone/Montana's PR depsrtment deserves a complement for what they accomplish at the Rally's.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

What was the solution that Montana/Lippert offered at the forums for the flat plastic cable carriers under ths slides that were breaking?

Oh yeah - I forgot all about those! I used pieces of thick rubber to fix mine.

[richfaa]

"It appears that Keystone/Montana's PR depsrtment deserves a complement for what they accomplished at the Rally's:....

What does the PR department have to do with what is accomplished at the rallies. I have never met a member of the PR department nor have they identified themselves at the rally. I have had problems with my 3400 Montana but never one that involved the PR department. Exactly what would break that the PR department can fix..... Specific examples please. I never thought about that????

[Desert RVer]

Rich,

Here is a clip from Wikipedia's definition of PR:

....PR can be used to build rapport with employees, customers, investors, voters, or the general public.[2] Almost any organization that has a stake in how it is portrayed in the public arena employs some level of public relations....

This is what I was referring to.

[blarkman]

good point desert rver
Those who get to go the factory get the cream
bob