Frame Question (Goshen Attendees??)

[K0LCB]

Well said, Carol! Life isn't always perfect, but it always interesting

[bncinwv]

No rant Carol, I think you have merely confirmed what most of us have accepted as reality. A new initiate into this wheeled society may well have some unforeseen surprises waiting for them. In the end, they are the ones that have to decide to stick with a sour lemon that life provides or to make lemonade. I, personally, prefer to make lemonade!!
Bingo

[8.1al]

Wowser,
We really love our chairs with the storage in the seat.
We also love our Montana. It has served us well during 9+ years of fulltiming. Have we had problems? Yes but we also realize that it was designed for the occasional user and as someone else has pointed out they are an earthquake going down the road so there will be some issues.

[Jay Bird]

We have just purchased our second Montana, Why? We have been very satisfied with our 2007 3400RL. When we purchased the unit we said we would keep it seven years. We almost made it. We have kept it 61/2 years. Have we had some problems, yes. Has Keystone stepped up and fixed the problems, yes. We sat down with some folks several times at Hershey show this year and everyone of them expressed problems with their units. Some were high end 5th wheels to include built to order ones (to our surprise), class A motorhomes, and class C motorhomes. So it does not matter what you buy in the RV industry, you may or may not experience problems. What surprised us that almost in each encounter these people were buying units from the same manufacturer. For us what has made the difference was a good dealer and a company that stood behind their product. Like Bingo, I believe in insurance whether it is extended warranty or aftermarket items. The way I look at it is man made. Nothing on this earth man made is perfect.

[Irlpguy]

Carol, I am sorry I will not be sending any heat your way, you will have to venture south to find your own...

Men of my vintage tend not to get all that excited over a seat that lifts up to provide extra storage, we get more excited about the seat we forget to put down for the next user. I have not had to replace any light bulbs, but I expect to one day. My AC has not peed on me as yet nor has the crapper been anything but cooperative, I expect one day these things may happen to me in my Montana because I "DO NOT" expect perfection and expect over time things will happen.

I reserve the word love for my wife, my dog and my children, I do not love material things but I get your point.

I am most pleased with my 6 point level up, I am very happy to sit at my nice desk and use my computer, and when parked at a special place I sit and look out my nice big back window and think life is good.

I have what I consider to be a great new truck, I don't love it, and I expect I may have some problems in the future and will deal with them when the time comes. I did not expect perfection there either.

I have had more than my share of problems with my less than 2 year old Montana, to ignore that, and suggest to others all is well would be wrong and do a disservice to those that seek to hear of our experiences with our Montana's. I have had less than stellar interaction with Keystone, I know that others have had nothing but good service from them. The whole experience is different for everyone.

I grew up in a camping family, my family has always camped, everything from sleeping under the stars right up to the Montana. It isn't about what you go to sleep in, or how you got there, the campfire itself, the time shared with those we love is what it is all about.

When someone asks, be it here on this forum or in person I will always relate my experiences and problems, because I feel they deserve to know what they "might" also experience. We really would not want anyone to be delusional enough to expect "perfection" now would we.

My Montana will be my last RV, she really has some good qualities and I really don't want to put this much effort into rebuilding another one. I will treat her well and hope she in turn now sees fit to not cause me more grief.

I enjoyed your post Carol, personally I do not think anyone on this forum expects perfection, some of us obviously had higher expectations and we are justifiably disappointed that Keystone did not meet them.

Now I need to flex my frame before my warranty runs out.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by Tom S.



Then the obvious question is why didn't you? They were out there. Yet you decided to spend half that amount and expected the same quality? Here's the happy thought: it's not too late! You can trade in the Montana, or sell it out right and still buy that $130,000 5th wheel.

Real simple I didn’t know they existed and the “they are the best selling and best quality on the market” line from a trusted friend sold the trailer.

I did not buy a cheap trailer. I was sold a trailer as a top of the line product.

If this friend who now will not even talk to me needed the money bad enough to hang me with a trailer that he knew from experience was a do it yourself kit and hang me with a dealer that he knew from experience didn’t have a service department capable of changing a tire without damaging the side of the trailer I would have given him several thousand if he had ask.

Even then it took me 6 months to figure out I was being lied to by the dealer.

That is why I keep telling these folks here to get everything they bring to the dealer attention on paper. If you point out to the service manager that a book in a cabinet got damp and he says it was condensation make sure he puts the complaint on the work order and makes the condensation statement in writing.

Phil P

[WaltBennett]

I've owned five different RVs or trailers, some new, some used, three from dealers. Every one has had something not right with it, no matter how 'thorough' a dealer claimed to have inspected them. I also have spent some time as a realtor and have never, ever seen a home go through a certified inspection without things being found that needed fixing - old or new, it doesn't matter. I've learned that most RV dealers aren't anything more than car salespeople, just like new home salespeople. All they really care about is moving product and will say almost anything to do that. Some have real effective service departments, but not all. That's why I do most work myself, although there is a dealer close by that I believe is fairly competent.

IMHO, what matters most about anything you get is it's value to you. How well it meets your personal needs and fits your lifestyle. A $200k custom built 5er that you'll need a new truck to tow and won't fit in half the places you like to visit won't work well for you even if the floor plan is perfect and absolutely nothing is wrong with it (and maybe there really is an Easter Bunny!). BEFORE signing anything, anyone seriously considering buying something at any substantial price should inspect it thoroughly themselves. Why so many don't do this is beyond my comprehension. If you find something you don't like, DON'T sign anything until it's fixed, no matter how hard the sales person pushes. If you go ahead and buy it with a promise of getting things fixed, you've no one to blame but yourself if they don't do it right. The biggest problem comes when you find something wrong after you've driven off the lot (and no matter how rigorous your inspection is this can easily happen) and that fabulous dealership (according to your sales person) all of a sudden can't or won't help because you took it down the road. Most used units are sold with no real warrantee,

We bought our used Monty from a large dealer after inspecting it ourselves. We felt the layout and features were what we needed and the price was within our budget. The things that weren't right we could fix ourselves or just deal with. I noted how the floor had a little more flex in the middle compared than our previous 27' TT, but it was less than an earlier 33' TT and I knew jacks could solve that if we wanted to stay put somewhere for a while. There was no separation or mis-allignment anywhere that we could find, so we went ahead and bought it. Five thousand miles and almost three months of living in it have not changed our minds.

[WaltBennett]

Here I was still typing and the previous posted all on it's own! Anyway, what I was trying to end with is that buying an RV is very analogous to buying a home. Both are extremely complex and it's very difficult if not impossible to get one without any flaws. The challenge is to only have minor ones.

[richfaa]

Carol. That as a long time ago and my old guy memory had you on the wrong side of the door. This has been a interesting thread in term of varying expectations. After selling Rv's for various dealer touring I think every plant in the Elkhart area and being member of various Rv forums well before we purchased we experienced a hard dose of reality in terms of the Rv industry. We were disappointed but not surprised on the problems we have had large and small on both of our Montana 5th wheels.

We were not disappointed on the quality of Keystone customer service both during and after the purchase. Looking at the big picture our 06 3400 served us well for 7 years but not without problems. We do expect better from this 13 3402.Our worst issue had been the compartment door struts pulling out of the door.

We upgrade our unit to reflect our travel and living needs. That will mean the IS on this 13 3402 had it been a option I would have had it.

We have always posted all of our issues both large and small in the hopes it will help others as it helped us. We report all problems to Keystone Customer service. we all should.

Just to make it clear. I will continue to post problems no matter how small. We feel we purchased the best 5th wheel in its class at a price we could afford. We feel Keystone haS best best customer support in the industry.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by WaltBennett

I've owned five different RVs or trailers, some new, some used, three from dealers. Every one has had something not right with it, no matter how 'thorough' a dealer claimed to have inspected them. I also have spent some time as a realtor and have never, ever seen a home go through a certified inspection without things being found that needed fixing - old or new, it doesn't matter. I've learned that most RV dealers aren't anything more than car salespeople, just like new home salespeople. All they really care about is moving product and will say almost anything to do that. Some have real effective service departments, but not all. That's why I do most work myself, although there is a dealer close by that I believe is fairly competent.

IMHO, what matters most about anything you get is it's value to you. How well it meets your personal needs and fits your lifestyle. A $200k custom built 5er that you'll need a new truck to tow and won't fit in half the places you like to visit won't work well for you even if the floor plan is perfect and absolutely nothing is wrong with it (and maybe there really is an Easter Bunny!). BEFORE signing anything, anyone seriously considering buying something at any substantial price should inspect it thoroughly themselves. Why so many don't do this is beyond my comprehension. If you find something you don't like, DON'T sign anything until it's fixed, no matter how hard the sales person pushes. If you go ahead and buy it with a promise of getting things fixed, you've no one to blame but yourself if they don't do it right. The biggest problem comes when you find something wrong after you've driven off the lot (and no matter how rigorous your inspection is this can easily happen) and that fabulous dealership (according to your sales person) all of a sudden can't or won't help because you took it down the road. Most used units are sold with no real warrantee,

Hi

This is my 4th RV the first 3 were used.

In reference to your “house” example.

I understand what you are talking about. But apparently you don’t understand what I am talking about.

I am not talking about minor problems that cropped up when the trailer was first used. I am talking about major problems that made the trailer unusable.

Portable water line not hooked up. I don’t mean leaking I mean not hooked up behind the flooded basement wall..

Waste tank vent not installed. Again I don’t mean joints not properly glued I mean it was stacked on the floor behind the basement wall.

Then first use of the shower a week or so latter water all over the bathroom floor because the shower enclosure installation had not been finished.

This goes on and on for 6 months. Then I called keystone and things got worse.

As for the sizes of the trailer. The Montana I have is too large for a lot of the older RV parks and many of the state and federal parks. The trailers I have looked at to replace this one are all 1 to 3 feet shorter.

Phil P

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

I am resisting, sorta, the urge to respond to the word Love.

Because I do not care to have my love of my family, pets, friends questioned.

But, I am resisting. Well, NO I am not.

Yes, this is a snide remark. Forgive me.

Somehow the words, extreme like for creative writing purposes just does not work for me.

And, yes, I am a bit snarky this morning, I am dealing with the death in the family, a family member on the brink, and I do mean brink of disaster and several others in very serious situations.

OK, I resent the insinuation that I Love my Montana more than my family.

Do not judge me until you know me or walk in my shoes.

Admins and moderators will decide if this post remains, I have faith that they will make the correct decision for the MOC.

[Phil P]

Hi Mrs. CountryGuy

I am sorry but I had to go back over several post to figure out what you are talking about.

I didn’t attaché any significance to either one of the post involved.

Phil P

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

Thank you Phil.

[WaltBennett]

Phil, I hate to point this out, but did you have them put water in it and verify everything worked before taking it off the lot? This wouldn't have shown all you encountered, but certainly would have had water running into the basement. I had the same problem with a Fleetwood Tioga class C I bought new from a dealer in '88. I took it home, started filling the fresh tank and had water all over the floor. The line was inserted into the tank, but the fitting was never tightened. Then there was an electrical problem caused by someone putting too long a bolt through the firewall and into a distribution block - that was never covered by warranty including the 'expanded extended' one I stupidly bought and cost me over $500 to fix back then (at least no fires, but it sure wouldn't run). I've had other issues with other RVs as well so I can understand how you feel about your Montana and Keystone, but other manufacturers, brands and dealers can be just as terrible as what you experienced.

You may think the house analogy doesn't apply, but I've seen brand new homes with major wiring, plumbing and heating/cooling duct problems that required wall and ceiling rip outs to repair. I've also seen inspectors find problems in 'used' homes that took them off the market and forcing the owners to move out until things were fixed (new septic system was one, new soil pipe another). That's not to mention code violations, etc. - the minor issues.

There are similarities, but there also are not the kind of inspectors available for RVs as there are for homes, so everyone (including me) is pretty much stuck dealing with things like this on their own. Only real help I've found thus far has been RV Consumer Group, and even though they are kind of over the top, they've good information & checklists that can really be helpful. Even following their info, we had several minor issues with our new/used Monty that we didn't find until we'd taken it out for several days.

[Irlpguy]

I am completely bewildered with your post Mrs.CountryGuy. I am truly sorry you are experiencing such sad and trying events in your life at this time, it is truly difficult I know.

I have read every post since yours over and over and can only surmise you are directing your last post at me and perhaps two things.

If my one reference to "love" and how I reserve use of the word from my perspective (male don't forget) was interpreted to suggest you loved your Montana more than something else, then I am sorry you took it the wrong way, that was not the intent in any way shape or form.

My reference to the campfire again was highlighting the joy of sitting around it in the company of ones we love, the only suggestion intended was that of being there no matter how or in what way that had been accomplished.

Sadly you have judged me based on your interpretation of my words, I do not judge you for that or on any other basis. What I hope for is a turn around in what is happening in your life that brings you some sunshine to brighten your day.

[Rondo]

Apparently, several of the posters here are not happy with their Montana! IF you are so unhappy with your unit why don't you trade it in for some other "high quality rig" as you say you want and that you do not have-- if you think it is "higher quality"?

I've got a USED 2004 unit and have had some problems- yes- but you don't hear me on this forum cutting down the Montana or Keystone because "it is what it is"- a used unit but I have had good service from my local dealer, my private service tech and Keystone themselves on problems. Mine and your unit is a "mobile unit" that goes over all kinds of roads and highways(rock covered and gravel roads with holes and washboard spots all over, highways/interstates that are paved but you would think they are washboards themselves, and much more in the way of travel byways). It twists and turns and bounces and dips everywhere you go no matter where you are. IF you don't want this to happen then you best purchase a site and leave it permanently in on that site and not visit our great country.

As I said "It is what it is" and I didn't expect to have a stick and brick quality when we purchased it and don't expect to have the same quality of a stick and brick in a new one if that time ever happens in the future. If you are expecting that--DO NOT BUY ANY "MOBILE UNIT"--no matter what price you pay for it-because you will be sorely disappointed.

I guess if you want a "mobile unit" that will not have any problems, you had better plan on paying a million or more and then you will still have problems because it is "mobile" and not sitting on a piece of God's Green Earth" permanently and not moving around period. And I'd venture to say you will STILL have problems on your million dollar unit sitting there!

Yup, you hear on here of problems that have happened and I've posted some myself, but as was said earlier in this eight page thread by other posters, you don't hear of may praises because people are happy with what they have and they understand they will have problems period. IF you want something you do not have to work on-- you better not buy period and that is ANY "mobile unit"!

OK, I'm off my soapbox!

No I'm not-- Bingo's original post was on the frames and it seems this has gone from that to bash session. I'll return this to the original posting and saying to Bingo that the frames, welds and bracing have improved over the years from what I've seen from plant tours over the last five years and Lippert and Keystone are still backing any problems that may arise with any frame flex or whatever that I can see, so are you trying to talk yourself out of your new unit Bingo?

[HOOK]

quote:Originally posted by BethandKevin

JMO here. I tend to believe "bounce" has more to do with frame and or weld failure than does road "shock". That said, does anyone know where the failures occur? If it is at the weld, then the failure is in the welder. First welding class I ever took I learned the weld should always be stronger than the material welded.

Amen!

[Montana_9856]

The OPs question was asked and answered. Time to move on to other discussions. This Topic is closed.