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Old 05-13-2014, 02:15 PM   #1
paddler67
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voltage on drum brakes

I'm redoing the brakes on a trailer.
how many volts should there be at the drum brakes of a 24' travel trailer.
I had 3.2 volts at the 7 pin plug at the back of the truck regardless of how I set the brakes controller on a 05 f350 with the built in brake controller I didn't have any voltage at the trailer drum brakes. the trailer battery was dead.
do you need a good battery to have voltage at the brake drum.
thanks
 
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Old 05-13-2014, 03:42 PM   #2
Phil P
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Hi

I will assume you have a trailer with the 7 pin plug with the 7th pin in the center of the plug.

On the 7 pin plug your brakes are on pin #2 I am not familiar with the new built in controllers so I am not sure what they might do without the load connected.

Pin 4 should be 12 V or your truck battery voltage. This is the one that charges your battery while you are traveling.

Pin 7 is the center pin and is normally used for backup lights.

You don’t need the trailer battery to make the brakes work but without the battery your break-A-way braking system would not work.

If I were working on the system I would first determine I had proper voltage on all of the pins in the socket on the truck at the proper time

Pin 1 is ground
Pin2 is brake controller
Pin 3 is Tail and running lights
Pin 4 is 12 v battery
Pin 5 is left turn
Pin 6 is right turn
Pin 7 Backup lights

When holding the trailer plug with the key up.

Pin 1 & 2 are on the bottom opposite the key

Pin 3 & 4 are on top either side of the key

Pin 5 & 6 are across from each other at the center line of the plug

Pin 7 is the center pin.




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Old 05-13-2014, 05:03 PM   #3
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paddler67, I have a '05 f-350. The early build with the intergrated brake controller doesn't supply much power to the trailer brakes until you are going 15 mph. That problem was fixed on later build models. I installed a switch from an always hot wire, by-passing the controller. It's a momentary on/off switch. Should I need brakes to hold the trailer under 15 mph.I use the switch. Only a couple times have I used it. Bill
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Crossthread

paddler67, I have a '05 f-350. The early build with the intergrated brake controller doesn't supply much power to the trailer brakes until you are going 15 mph. That problem was fixed on later build models. I installed a switch from an always hot wire, by-passing the controller. It's a momentary on/off switch. Should I need brakes to hold the trailer under 15 mph.I use the switch. Only a couple times have I used it. Bill
Hi

Be a little carful with this. If you pull the break-A-way switch and have a good battery you can’t leave the brakes under full amperage very long without damaging them.

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Old 05-14-2014, 02:22 AM   #5
paddler67
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hello
thanks for the good inf.
now I know why my batteries are not charging when we travel.
I have over 12 volts on left and right turn signal, tail and running lights. also, over 12 volts on the brake controller outlet when brake controller is set on ten and 6.76 volts when brake controller is set to 5.
should I get a voltage reading at the trailer brake drum with a bad battery on the trailer and the trailer is connected to the truck.
thanks.
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Old 05-14-2014, 04:40 AM   #6
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The dead battery could be stealing (shorting out the current), try discounting the battery.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:07 AM   #7
Crossthread
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Philp, I never said that I pull the break away switch, I installed a separate switch. It is used as only a mometary on/off for the brakes only. It's about the only way that you can do a pull test without chocking the tires with the early build '05 F-350. Bill
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:46 AM   #8
Phil P
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Crossthread

Philp, I never said that I pull the break away switch, I installed a separate switch. It is used as only a mometary on/off for the brakes only. It's about the only way that you can do a pull test without chocking the tires with the early build '05 F-350. Bill
Hi

No implied instruction to you.

It was only intended to be a caution for the OP.

You and I probably wouldn’t have a problem using a switch like you describe.

Leaving that switch on for an extended period of time could cause damage to the magnets.

The OP could have decided to jump his brake system directly to a good battery without a word of caution.

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Old 05-14-2014, 09:41 AM   #9
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paddler67, refer to this post: http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...ad.php?t=57837

The early 2005 Super Duty trucks (built prior to March 23, 2005) DO NOT supply more that 4 volts to the brakes UNLESS the truck is moving. To test this you must have someone drive the truck at about 10 MPH while you sit in the bed and check the brake pin with a volt meter. You should then get 12 volts. With the truck sitting still you should not get more than 4 volts, probably less.
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Old 05-17-2014, 02:22 PM   #10
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my truck sticker on the door reads made 4-05yr. i'm convinced they used all left over parts. anyway, I did get 12.22 volts with truck parked with the brake controller set on ten and I got 6.76 volts with the brake controller set on 5. did test by manually squeezing the lever on the brake controller.
took the trailer for a test run and I don't seem to have enough braking.
I pull the break away pin and the wheels still don't lock up. I can feel the brakes working a little on the trailer when im pulling around in a parking lot.
I checked grounds and they seem to be ok.
I have been pulling a 07 Montana md 3295 with disc brakes and have no problems. I called the disc brake installer to see if any changes were make for the disc brakes installation and was told the truck does care whether it is towing with drum brake or disc.
Im just lost as to what to check next.
any suggestions will be helpful.
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:11 PM   #11
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Hi

I looked into putting disk brakes on our trailer and was told the opposite by Dexter. Dexter said I would need an additional unit to put between the truck controller and the disk brake system to make the disk brakes work correctly.

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Old 05-17-2014, 05:01 PM   #12
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when they put disc brakes on our fifth wheel they did use one of the magnets from the drum brakes on the trailer but they did nothing to the truck. the magnet interrupted a signal.
I have a problem some where getting volts out of pin 4 to charge the battery in the trailer while towing.
I used axle inc in Elkhart for the disc brakes installation.
im trying to get the brakes corrected on a small travel trailer for summer use.
how do I trouble shoot the problem of not getting volts out of pin 4???
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Old 05-17-2014, 05:46 PM   #13
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hello
phil p you are correct they did install a magnet from the drum brakes on the fifth wheel side. the magnet had something to do with a signal between the truck and trailer.

so im getting in the back of the truck with an alligator clip connected to pin 4 and ride down the road at 15 mph to check voltage going to the charging of the trailer.
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Old 05-17-2014, 06:06 PM   #14
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Trying to read between the lines on the OP and a subsequent post it appears the Montana you pull with disc brakes is not the trailer you are having issues with the brakes. If I understand correctly and the trailer does not have self adjusting brakes the my suggestion would be to raise each wheel off the ground, adjust the brakes so you cannot turn the wheel then back them off a turn or two.

A lot of brakes are not equipped with self adjust and do need to be set up once in a while because the pads are wearing. It sounds to me as if the brakes just need adjustment.

When the axles were replaced on my Montana the shop did not set up the brakes and when I pulled it home I had virtually no brakes although they were all new the self adjusters had not had time to adjust the brakes so that they worked properly. A return trip and adjustment of each wheel solved the problem. This was an oversight on the part of the installer, not a problem with the brakes.

The more voltage applied to the magnets the more they try to grab onto the drum, however they can only move the pads so far if they are improperly adjusted.

I think your voltages are ok, try adjusting as I suggest.

Oh by the way, the trailer battery has no bearing on the operation of the brakes when applied from the TV, the breakaway switch will use the trailer batteries in the event of a breakaway that is the only time they come into play with respect to the brakes.

It seems some, perhaps all TV's have a fuse in the main fuse box that may not be present to send the 12V to pin #4, that may be your problem there as well. Don't be fooled into thinking this will give you much charge to the batteries in the trailer since it is only floating the voltage from the TV batteries on the trailer batteries, it will give you some charge but not sufficient to maintain the trailer batteries.




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Old 05-18-2014, 01:34 AM   #15
Phil P
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Note to the OP

Let’s do one problem at a time.

Let’s start with pin 4.

I don’t have experience with the late model Ford trucks the latest I have is a 1999.

Most trucks have 12V on pin 4 all the time. But yours may be setup to only supply 12V when the ignition is on.

If you are not getting 12V on pin 4 at any time then check to make sure the system has been enabled. Our 2009 Silverado came from the manufacturer with the trailer package installed but the wire to pin 4 was not connected at the power center. After connecting this wire we had 12V on pin 4.

Also there will be a fuse in one of you fuse panels check that to make sure it is not open circuit.

Now for the brakes tell us what you are working on disk or drum?

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Old 05-18-2014, 01:45 PM   #16
paddler67
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hello
I'm working on drum brakes.
I got the inside and outside diagram mixed up.
I do have 12 volts on pin 4 and on the elec. trailer brake pin #2 I have 12 volts with the brake controller set on 10 and I have 6.60 volts when the brakes controller is set on 5.
at the junction box under the trailer I get almost 12 volts using the lever at the brake controller with the controller set on 10 but using the brake I get 1.81 volts. i got about the same voltage at the drum when i checked after doing the repair. i can hear the magnets working when the brake are pressed.
i towing with a 05 f350 4x4 lb drw and the little trailer with 13" tires only weights about 4000 lbs so maybe the trailer is not capable of hold back the truck when i do checks in the parking lot. the brakes will not lock up when i supply 10 volts.
maybe i can run a wire from the drum brake to the inside of truck and do a voltage check going down the road.
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Old 05-18-2014, 02:15 PM   #17
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The first thing I would do is get a compass and check each wheel for the magnet before I do anything else.

If your compass points at the magnet on each wheel then you have a problem in the drum, adjustment, worn shoes or rusted hinge point for the application arm etc.

The only reason I put new brake shoes on at 60,000 miles was because one of the hinge points had rusted and was causing a dragging brake.

Here is a picture of the break.



The magnet is the shiny thing at the bottom. The hinge I am talking about is in the arm the magnet is on and up near the top.

The shoes in this picture are more than 50 % worn so I replaced all break shoes at this time. The miles on the trailer at this point was 60,000 I put an additional 10,000 miles on it after this picture was taken

Phil P

PS:

Voltage at the wheel will not be as high as the voltage at the trailer receptacle on the truck because of the current the magnets draw.

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Old 05-25-2014, 04:10 PM   #18
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Thanks abunch.. I think my biggest problem was I was misreading the diagram of the inside and outside picture. It had been a long time since I worked on drum brakes so I appreciate the instruction.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:28 AM   #19
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To the question of not having 12V on pin 4. My TV is a 2008 GM but maybe Ford does same. My GM had no 12V on pin 4 as delivered. Took a little research but the wire that supplies 12V doesn't come from factory with the wire hooked up. It was taped back close to fuse box. It has a stud with nut outside fuse box where the wire hooks up to get the 12V.
I was told why GM does this but can't remember why. Those that have 12V the dealer must have hooked up
A quick check for brake adjustment. Jack a wheel up and pull break away cable. Wheel should be locked up if RV battery is good. As already stated, don't leave it pulled for very long.
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