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Old 10-14-2009, 01:54 PM   #1
gojodo
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Use of Portable Generators

I have recently read some posts on RV Forum dealing with the topic of Bonding the neutral wire system of an electrical system with the ground. In residential situations the bonding takes place in the electrical panel at the house, so a portable generator is NOT bonded because apparently it is dangerous to have two bonding points in one circuit. Also, when a generator is installed in an RV the wiring requirments include bonding the ground and neutral to the RV Chassis. This was true for a solar installation as well, as in the case of my Montana with solar. However, when I plug in my Honda 2000 there is no bonding. Apparently this is dangerous. I don't know why but others say so. Does anyone have any thoughts on this problem. Should we be concerned about bonding the ground and neutral in the RV when using portable generator power?
 
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:24 PM   #2
farmboy
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The final answer was posted a couple days ago by Larry in his blog on rvnet.com. Very interasting reading and he is absolutely right. The portable genny for rv usage needs bonding in the genny. That is how it is done for standby usage at homes or hospital or industrial usages. You may ask how I know, well I am a retired industrial electrician who has done manny genny installations. Mostly large 500kw, Which is enough to light 50,000 100w light bulbs.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:47 PM   #3
Art-n-Marge
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Whoa... I have dual gennys to provide a power source for my RV. I am not familiar with this "bonding" you mention. I connect the two Hondas together with their parallel cable and started them up, then connected the RV power cord to the 30 amp connect on one of the gennys, then to the RV input connector.

Gojodo & Farmboy - I was going to PM you, but a reply here is probably better for others to read and appreciate.

Since you brought it up, other than what I have done, how does one bond their generators and can you describe the danger if this is not done? Whether the genny is an onboard (like an Onan in a compartment) or external, like my dual Honda genny's what do I have to do or worry about?

Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:31 PM   #4
Countryfolks
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Bonding is connecting them together as I understand it. The neutral and ground are not bonded in your rig and are not supposed to be, in a stick house they are. The neutral is the center leg of the 220VAC 50A input and is one leg of the 30A circuitry. If you do something that causes them to be effectively bonded in the rig you will probably cause yourself problems. I think most US generators may not have a bonded neutral/ground while Canadian ones do.
Here's the referenced blog.
http://blog.rv.net/2009/10/generator...and-grounding/
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:41 AM   #5
gojodo
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I am not qualified to answer the question of what is the best way to bond the portable generator, I know it was discussed on RV Forum at the link Countryfolks listed. As I understand it when a generator is installed inside the RV they bond the neutral and ground to the RV chassis. What I understood from the RV Forum article was that he bonded the neutral and ground to the chassis of the portable generator, but was raising the question of whether or not that was adequate. I really don't have the answer so maybe Farmboy or others have suggestions on how best to use a portable generator in the Monty.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:03 AM   #6
Johnnyg
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After reading the blog that contryfolks referenced it sounds like if a pigtail were made that would tie the neutral and ground together within it self and labeled FOR RV USE ONLY one could safely use the genny for both RV and home applications without the worry of dismanteling anything. I think??
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:20 PM   #7
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I do not owne portable generator nor Have I had one apart to see if they are bonded or not. I can only speek of my experince with the standby type setups. Standby setups are just like your utility except at your house or permently installed in your rig at the factory. As stated in the rvnet.com blog by Larry a repair shop may be able to tell you how potable general are setup. In fact I have on exerience with the inverter type portables so don't know how they actually work. I assume they don't work like a conventional generator does. But I may look it up just for the education of it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:34 PM   #8
KathyandDave
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This is tricky stuff and dangerous if one gets it wrong. The article in RV.net is revealing both for the information presented and for the tendency of many commenters to cling to myth. I know from personal professional experience that the waveforms of modern electronic devices are nothing like the waveforms of simple electromechanical devices and therefore the old ways of managing them DO NOT WORK. Has anybody measured the voltage and current waveforms of the Honda? I wouldn't place a lot of faith in genny repair shops, since they may be doing what they've always done, based on old ideas about how alternating current works and may not actually know what the genny is doing. Personally, I agree with farmboy about bonding the neutral and ground at the genny (analogous to bonding at the X0 of a transformer or at the service entrance of a house), but I would be leery of making simple comparative assumptions and proceeding to make up cables as if they were true. From the discussion on RV.net, it sounds to me like the Honda uses a "balanced" power scheme to get 120V out of two 60V systems wired out of polarity. An anecdote told to me in my professional life makes me VERY cautious about bringing the balanced power anywhere near common power. Spitzensparken!
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:19 PM   #9
gojodo
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Dave. cam you translate what you said for us not electrician types? We are looking for a solution to the identified potential problem of using a non bonded generator in another non bonded RV system. John
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:40 PM   #10
KathyandDave
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I just mean, get an electrician or electrical engineer experienced in generator/inverter power applications AND RV electrical code to advise about this. I know just enough to back away from danger.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:43 PM   #11
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This is something I'll need to check. The dual Hondas I use their parallel cable between them. In addition there is an expensive external metal box that gets fastened to one of the gennys that provides the 30 amp plug that the RV cable connects to. This metal box is a good size and could have more than the power supply wiring required by the RV. I might open it to confirm what inside. Maybe there's a #10 wire providing bonding. On the other hand maybe I should just locate the documentation and check or contact Honda directly to get their facts.

Just ANOTHER thing to think and learn about in the RV world.

KathyandDave - Nice new avatar - But I didn't realize you were German. To put things in Deustche sprechen: Spiztzensparken ist verbotten und zwie Gheneratorsht nein musten gerfingerpoken und der connekshuns ist Guten Tite or else GAZZIT. Hey, what can I say. My Spanish is even worse.

ON EDIT: Starting with the link provided by Countryfolks there are other links by the author that does comment on how to bond a portable generator when used with AND only with the RV. Basically you jumper the neutral and ground together inside the chassis using a #10 wire. I guess in the case of a dual genny system, this means only one genny needs it. Then the genny MUST not be used as a power source for the house since the house is already bonded (or remove the jumper). But what about if I want to use the portable genny to power individual devices, like TVs, laptops, etc.? Something else to check out.

SECOND EDIT: took the interface box apart (provided by Reliant for Honda to provide the 30 amp connector) for the dual gennys. The ground is not connected (bonded) to neutral! So what happens in this case? I get fried if I touch something and it's raining? A little help please. If I eventually get around to bonding the interface box then disconnecting the interface box means I can use the individual genny for individual devices. I will have to try and get in touch with Honda or their local experts (like where I bought it) and see what they know. FYI - The Reliant box connects the parallel cables to the ground, neutral and hot female 30 amp connector. It also has a 30 amp breaker and watt gauge in the assembly. This will be the best place to put a BOND across the neutral and ground since it is ONLY for the RV.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:09 AM   #12
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I tried to find access to a Honda technician but their web site didn't offer much help. They suggest you go to the dealer and talk to them. I will continue to search for answer and post it here, hope you will do the same. John
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:19 AM   #13
gojodo
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Larry on RV Net posted the answer to my question posted there: #

Larry, as I understand your post and these follow up comments, I can attach my Honda 2000 to my RV but first I should connect the ground and the neutral in the cord running from the Honda to the RV. I have a system where I have isolated the Air Conditioner in the RV with an IOTA ITS-30R Transfer Switch leading to a separate outlet for the generator to plug into. If I just modify the cord it sounds like it should work. Is there any testing with a multimeter that would confirm this before I power it up? Thanks John
# larrycad on October 16th, 2009 7:59 am

John, your understanding is correct. To verify your connection, I will assume your cord ends in a standard 15 or 20 amp plug. I understand that this is the plug you use to power your A/C on the RV. If all that is correct, you will need a multimeter to make the checks you want. First, notice on the end plug that there are three “holes”, two slots and a “round” hole. One of the two slots is taller than the other. That would be the slot on the left as you look at the plug receptacle. The taller slot is the neutral and the shorter slot is the hot. The round hole is the ground. With your multimeter set to read ohms or continuity, and with the cord unplugged from the generator, you should read continuity between the ground and the neutral. You should also read infinity between the hot and the neutral. Next, plug the cord into the generator and fire it up. With the multimeter in the AC volts setting, and set to read at least 130 volts AC, check the voltage from hot to neutral and read about 120vac. Then check from hot to ground and read the same voltage. Now read from neutral to ground and you should have 0 vac. If these checks are ok, you should be safe to plug in your A/C. Any questions, please let me know.

Larry

The full context of this post can be seen at: http://blog.rv.net/2009/10/generator...and-grounding/
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:48 AM   #14
KathyandDave
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In response to an earlier comment: I just fired up our Canadian Honda eu2000i, as I do every once in a while. The label says the Neutral is floating.
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:00 AM   #15
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The link below goes into a little detail about bonding on Honda genetators. Hope it helps.

http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/operation.htm
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:47 AM   #16
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I have no clue about any of this, but having said that I will contribute what I can. When I wired the second outlet (for generator use) into the Smartswitch and in turn into the Progressive Industries EMS system, I was constantly faulting out at the EMS. Progressive Industries response was to bond the neutral and ground together on the input. I did that inside of the Smartswitch and everything works fine. As I said, how this plays into the use of all generators, I don't have a clue, but I do know that the electrical guru I consulted said to do it, so I did. It works so I didn't question it further. I believe the error code I was getting was open ground. I detailed all of this last year on another thread. If this seems to be an inane contribution that may or may not help with the answer, so be it.
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