Hitch Pin Welds

[sreigle]

That's great! I understand they put people up in the nearby Holiday Inn Express. Looks like a nice place. Hope you get to see some of the sites around there while you're there. If questions about that, let us know and several of us can tell you some places to visit.

[fla hobo]

Ok We left Fla. April 1st spend time with friends at Nashville & then headed farther North. Went to Holland Mi only 2 hours From Goshen IN. Got to Goshen Sunday night & at 7 am Monday morning our unit was in to be worked on. They had already knew what they were going to do to the frame without even checking it out. We still don't feel that that is the real problem. But................ who are we to tell them what to do right?
We drove around the area & Ernie saw the 5th wheel frames up close & in person. He says that there is not enough cross metal in the back of the upper part. I can't really explain it with words but I could draw you a picture lol
After we had these problems with the frame flexing from those welds under the walls to the frame we had problems with a few others things like the sides not sitting right. They ended up taking all 3 slides out & putting in some rectofit kits in all of them & I guess they had been leaking so they replaced some bowed wood & replaced the carpet in the living room area. We are every pleased with everything they did as those things were not under warranty. There was no cost to us & they are paying for our fuel from Fla. to IN. They took copies of our fuel reciepts. Will be 6 - 8 weeks to get it tho. We took a plant tour on Tuesday & wasn't real impressed as the man that took us couldn't anwser many questions & oh did Ernie have them. He told him what he thpought about the frame, where the upper comes down & joins the lower part of the frame but never got much of a answer. Should have went to lippert & toured there plant & talked to a enginer. Might have helped some.
If you have questions ask away.
We will let you know how this fix has worked in the further. We are back home in the house so will be awhile befor we are in the camper again. To much to do to camp for awhile.
We did go see some sites. Was fun.

[sreigle]

Fla Hobo, thanks much for the report. If you don't mind, I have some questions. First, we have an appt in May to have some similar work done. I went back to re-read your initial post in this thread to compare to our situation. Our dresser only drops about half an inch, not an inch like yours. Our shower door sticks when hitched up, not when unhitched. We have a gap between molding and rig on the curbside front lower corner below the overhang when hitched up, not when unhitched. Our living room slide seems to sit funny when retracted. The inside front lip is quite a bit higher than it used to sit, yet it looks fine outside. We are having trouble with getting water on the carpet around this slide. Didn't used to have that problem. We also get water from the slide on the other side, the kitchen slide. Our dealer fixed this twice but it didn't work.

If I may ask,

1. What did they do to fix your frame?

2. Were you able to stay in your rig at night?

3. Anything else you think I should know but maybe am not thinking to ask about?

I'm glad to see Keystone took good care of you. They are terrific people from what I've seen. It's things like this that keeps them number one in sales and in my own opinion. Thanks for the report.

We'll be out of town tomorrow so likely will not be on moc nor see email.

[fla hobo]

We don't know anthing for a fact as we didn't see it. Daryl Turner which was the man that set up our appt. told us what they did. Very nice man. They told us they put some cross bracing around the hitch pin box & some wood. Our slides starting doing the same thing as yours is doing, but we never saw any water. Keystone found out they had been leaking & repaired them flooring also at no charge. Sounds like you have the same thing going on as we did. Oh I forgot to tell you that our shower started to leak. They rechaulked & we hope that fixed it. Was leaking into the under storage area. They paid to put us up in the Hoilday Inn Express very close by. They had all 3
slides out so would have been hard to stay in it LOL
We should know by the end of summer if all these problems have been fixed.
We will keep you updated. I hope your experience is as welll as ours.
You should take the tour they are on Tues. & Thrus. at 2.

[sreigle]

Thanks, Fla Hobo, I appreciate the information. We took the tour back in 2003 and again during the rally last September. We'll probably take it again while we're there. Hopefully they'll get us all fixed up, too.

[mobilrvn]

Just when you thought it was safe to go into the water again! Now we have a BROKEN FRAME!!! As you know from reading this topic, we have had experience with a broken frame with our previous 5W. We are currently at Suncoast RV in Valdosta GA after getting our appointment cancelled at Country Campers in Cut Off LA. I explained very carefully to the idiot there that I was sure that we had a broken frame based upon my prior experience and that we needed help, yet we were turned away at the last minute after thinking that we had an appointment for over a month. Fortunately, Suncoast could get us in--after each day of driving to get here, more problems showed up--nothing like driving another 600 miles or so on a broken frame to get help! They listened to our complaints (think we're up to 27 items that need repair now) and properly analized the major problem. Some of the gripes are related to the broken frame, but most others are just crappy construction or design. We had our old rig over 11 years and didn't have as many problems total as we have had to date with the Montana!

The tech who is working on it has been very helpful and discovered that the countertop in the kitchen is cracked so once they get the frame repaired, we will go to the factory to have that replaced.
Was looking forward to a factory tour, but it doesn't sound like it would be very rewarding. Would like to yell at someone.

We are out of our unit and have been since 5/18. Sure didn't hear of any offers to pay for our extra housing expense or fuel to IN. Will go back and look for the receipts and maybe Keystone will come through for us.

Have looked at the damaged area and it is on the right front corner. The metal is torn and the welds broken--we haven't been been in any wrecks with it. One of the big clues that something is adrift is to look for movement of the moldings along the vertical edges in the hitch area. The movement occurs when the weight is transferred from the jacks to the hitch. You will see small gaps where the sealer is along the molding. The gaps will "disappear" when the weight is back on the jacks. It is difficult to tell, but you will have some movement of the 5W over the pin box when you are going down the road. Guess everyone should watch their rearview mirror to see what movement is normal and file that away for future reference just in case.

Will let you all know what happens as things progress.

[Montana_2753]

fla hobo & mobilrvn:

I have the 2004 3575 RL in the Big Sky version. I bought it used in Dec 2004. Previous owners (in their 80s) had lived in it for about 7-8 months (while new home was being built) after it was towed less than 100 miles to their site. It was towed back to the selling dealer (another 100 miles) and sat there until I bought it. The previous owners sold it back to the dealer . They were burned out in the Cedar fire in October 2003 and the deal was if they returned the Monty back to the dealer within a year they would get 75% of the purchase price back, as long as it was in very good condition, which it is (looked almost brand new!). I think the "build date" on it is September 2003. I have towed it approximately 500 miles. Haven't noticed anything unusual, so far, but you can believe that I'm going to keep an eye on things.

Thanks for your reports.

Bruce

[richfaa]

We are watching ALL of these post VERY closely.We are very happy we do not own a Montana yet and now perhaps never will.The good news is that it appears That keystone recognizes they have BIG problems and are into some serious damage control. We were not planning to buy till Spring 2006..Hope keystone comes out of this by then.

[sreigle]

Rich, one thing you have to remember is Keystone has sold over 20,000 Montanas. A forum like this will hear of the problems, and rightfully so. But it doesn't hear from the other 19,800 who have had no serious problems. If you go to any owner's forum you would think that brand is the worst there is. We're next to a Class A last night, a Monaco Diplomat. The owner told us he's on the way to the factory in Wakarusa, IN, because of a slide leak that's been 'fixed' three times and still leaks. Awhile back I talked with a Holiday Rambler fifthwheel owner who was getting a new rig because of serious frame problems. Etc. Etc. Neither of those are cheap brands. Just wanted to point out that you have to look at the bad and contrast it with the good, then make your decision. Just a few thoughts. Feel free to ignore them if you want.

[mobilrvn]

Been a while since we've been able to get on the MO site--most of the internet and library computers don't want all the cookies or whatever is dumped and we couldn't get on to let you know what is happening. Keystone let Suncoast do what sounds like the same fix that Fla Hobo described regarding their problem--unfortunately they didn't do much else on our laundry list since we have to take it to the factory--nine days definately made us a little cross. The long and short of it was that their fix didn't work! The minute weight was put on the hitch, the flexing came back with all the other problems it causes. Think we are up to 30 items not including what ever the problem really is---I think that the frame or more likely the metal strip that the sidewall is attached is also broken along the right side. Other than creating more problems, don't think it will come apart on the way to the factory--have an appointment on Aug 8th.

Was very upset with the flip attitude we got from the factory and after reporting that the problem hadn't been resolved, we were told that flexing is normal and that the 5W would shake apart if it didn't flex. Guess that must have been the problem since originally we didn't see any flexing and now it is falling apart! In the kitchen the one piece counter is cracked by the corners of the stove and the water heater has shifted about an inch to the outside of the rig. Where the supports are for the overhead cupboard by the sink, the distance from the countertop to the bottom of the cupboard is 24" and at the wall it is only 23 1/2". When the stabilzers are down, there is a rattling coming from the right side under the small S/O with the slightest movement in the rig. Think that is where I would look for the second break.

We love the 3575 floor plan and don't want to give it up especially after all the improvements we have made, but can't imagine that it can be restored to new. Hope that we are wrong and will be surprised by the factory. Overheard that the factory was going to beef up the hitch pin area---think that it would be a good idea since it didn't look that sturdy to me. Guess I would recommend that all of you take a good look at your rigs along the sidewalls in the hitch area when the weight is off the jacks to check for movement.

[sreigle]

Mobilrvn, we had our factory work done in the past couple of weeks and are very pleased with the results. They did the "retro" fix on the pinbox area and eliminated the flex in ours. As they did for others, they pulled all our slides and did the "retros" on those, including all new seals. The seals are better and longer than we originally had. I think this is what they're doing on the new ones. We had reported water under two slides on rainy day drives but they also pulled the bedroom slide and did the retro on that. I'm not sure what all that entails but they did say they put some nylon runners(?) to make it slide more easily and replaced all the seals. The people in the service center are super and did a great job. We found if you are reasonable, courteous, and polite with them, they will bust their tails to do everything they find wrong with yours. We even took them a cake for lunch one day because they had been working so hard taking care of these things for us. Another member took donuts to them several times.

We have one residual problem but Keystone is taking care of that. They replaced our gray bath tank, which had a small leak. We arrived in Independence to find we still have a leak in the gray tank or its pipes. I contaced the service center. They said they have another done about the same time with the same problem. Apparently a bad batch of pvc cement. They told me to check with the local Montana dealer to see if they'll do mobile service so we don't have to break camp (we're fulltiming). If not, then we use whatever mobile service will come out and fix it. They gave me directions for getting reimbursed for the cost. The dealer would bill Keystone direct but a mobile service would not.

I think if you treat them well they'll treat you well, as well (enough wells in that sentence?). We couldn't be more pleased with the treatment we received from these folks. They have to have the patience of Job; I know some people come in there with an attitude and they have to deal with that. I'm afraid I would not last long in that kind of environment as I do not react well to people with attitude!

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Montana_2753]

mobilrvn: Thanks very much for the updates. I've made a copy of yours and fla hobo's observations and will try to do a closer inspection the next time I get to the Monty. Took a cursory look last time and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, but with the newer information I will be "fine-tooth combing" it.

Hope all works out well.

Bruce

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

[...] They did the "retro" fix on the pinbox area and eliminated the flex in ours. [...]

We arrived in Independence to find we still have a leak in the gray tank or its pipes. I contaced the service center. They said they have another done about the same time with the same problem. Apparently a bad batch of pvc cement. [...]

Steve,

What is this "retro" pinbox fix? Since I have the same basic frame structure as you do I'm interested to know if I have a potential problem.

I'm also hoping that my "grey tank" leak is only a bad glue joint as well.

Eric

[sreigle]

Eric, the retro on the pinbox area is the frame fix. We had a separation noticeable, when hitched, at the lower corner next to the propane locker on the door side. Also, the factory people showed me that I could also see that the lower molding on the bottom of the overhang area was also dropping slightly. They said that's the usual place to notice it. Also, when hitched we could see that the dresser dropped about a quarter inch below the caulk line where the dresser meets the closet wall. The quarter inch was where the outer wall meets the dresser and closet wall. They welded in additional bracing in the overhang area. Unfortunately, this was done inside their shop in the employee only area so I did not see exactly what they did. If you have this problem, call the customer service people and let them know you have this problem. I did watch when they moved our rig when we first got there. When their tractor lifted the rig by the pin they lifted it fast enough I could see it flex. My hitching routine doesn't put the weight on the pin fast enough to notice it happening.

I have a mobile service coming out tomorrow to fix the leak. Unfortunately I'll be out of town so will ask Vicki to ask them what they find.

[Montana_2785]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Eric, the retro on the pinbox area is the frame fix. We had a separation noticeable, when hitched, at the lower corner next to the propane locker on the door side. [...]

Steve, I don't think I have any weld problems at the moment. I'm just concerned that there seems to still be some frame issues after they moved to the 10" frame. Especially since I'm a second owner

One of the reasons why I got the TrailAir pin box was to try to "baby" our frame to prevent issues later on. I hear our Monty make some flexing noises when I hitch & unhitch but I have been assuming that there is normally some of that. It is quite a bit of leverage haning out past the front landing jacks to not flex a little bit. I just want to learn the danger signs that it is flexing too much.

Eric

[sreigle]

It's not an issue with the 10-inch frame. It's with the frame in the overhang area. Maybe that's 10-inch, too, but I don't know that. Just take a look at the dresser when you are unhitched, then again when hitched up. When unhitched you should see the caulking along the top of the dresser along the closet wall is right at the edge of the dresser. When hitched, ours was showing the dresser about a quarter inch below the caulking where the closet wall and dresser meet the outer wall. It was pretty obvious. Since the fix the dresser remains where it should.

[hodag]

steve, i'm glad to see a reply from you on this thread,because i was thinking about your story a couple of weeks back. hope these folks get this taken care of and then some.

[mobilrvn]

Hi Everyone, not much to update since we are still on the way to the factory for our 8/8 appointment. No new damage, but what else is left, although the wall has dropped about another 1/2". We are concerned that it will start to interfer with the S/O on that side.

In the last CG met a 2005 Montana owner and they, too, have the same problem. However, when they called their dealer and explained what they saw, the dealer told them over the phone what the problem was. This makes me think that the "problem" must be more wide spread than what appears here or the dealer reads the MOC site.

Sreigle, how long were you at the factory for your repairs?

[sreigle]

We were there for about seven business days. But it normally doesn't take that long. We arrived on Monday. They had a couple of dropins with some work that needed to be done. One was a new roof. I think the other was a frame situation also. We told them to go ahead and get those folks taken care of as we're not in a hurry. So they didn't start ours until sometime Wednesday. Besides the frame work we also had shackles to be replaced and seals on a slide. And a refrigerator to be replaced under warranty. They also took out the other slides and put in new seals. Dale Brubaker, Lippert, replaced our slide pump. So we had several things done and repeatedly told them we're not in a hurry. For just the frame I would think they could finish that in a day, once started, would be my guess. If you're in a hurry. Otherwise, let them go through and fix anything they find that needs fixing.

[Go Pokes]

I am curious as to the approximate miles these Montana had been towed before these hitch weld problems began. Does anyone have an idea? In addition, those with the fixes how far have you pulled the Montana since the repair? Also what type of hitches were used to tow these Montana?