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Old 11-22-2012, 03:52 AM   #41
Irlpguy
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Chip I will be very interested in knowing how your situation is dealt with. My 2012 - 3402RL is at the dealer now for the exact same thing along with other poor workmanship/quality control issues. The measurement taken according to Lipperts instructions is different when the dealer took it from when I took it. My measurement showed 1/4" theirs they say was only 1/16th of an inch. My closet did not crack or warp to the extent that it did with just 1/16th of an inch flex.

Please keep us informed, if you have a contact at Keystone who you feel has been particularly helpful, please PM me the name. I have to this point had no luck at all.

Happy Thanksgiving
 
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:00 AM   #42
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Another issue with our Frame Flex on the 3800RE with the large bedroom slide, the bedroom frame work is also being pulled apart when hooked to the TV, as well as the upper cable is frayed and about to break from miss aligned with the frame. I have also addressed this issue with the dealer and so far after 3 weeks of picture taking as per Keystones request, still no answer of what will be done. This is something that I think most folks do not notice with there Frame Flex issues as it is some what in a hidden area that we don't tend to see. Pics of these problems and also Quiet Cool duct collapsed......

http://i47.tinypic.com/fz3sqt.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/t01ax5.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/34693xl.jpg
On another note, our tv has a cracked block and after doing a little research it seems to be some what common on the cat engine to crack in the same area on this model, seems like when it rains it pours.....so now looking for a replacement...... OUCH
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:44 AM   #43
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Quote from Irlpguy above..Well stated and My expectations exactly.Shoddy workmanship in our 06 3400 and no improvement in our 13 Big Sky. I guess the industry feeling is...well everyones else is doing the same why should we be different. Pay attention to what is going on during assembly and you will have a true quality product..


"Both my wife and I love our Monty, however like most RV owners, when purchasing the Montana, my expectation was that my unit was built to a high standard, including quality materials, with higher than average quality control. I expected good engineering design to have been used in every aspect of the unit. That is why I bought a Montana. If Keystone had met my expectations, then I would feel comfortable in looking after the things over which I have control feeling safe in the knowledge that the manufacturer had done their job. That is all I ask whether from Keystone or SOB, sadly I do not have that warm cozy feeling"
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:52 AM   #44
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Quote from Irlpguy above..Well stated and My expectations exactly.Shoddy workmanship in our 06 3400 and no improvement in our 13 Big Sky. I guess the industry feeling is...well everyones else is doing the same why should we be different. Pay attention to what is going on during assembly and you will have a true quality product..


"Both my wife and I love our Monty, however like most RV owners, when purchasing the Montana, my expectation was that my unit was built to a high standard, including quality materials, with higher than average quality control. I expected good engineering design to have been used in every aspect of the unit. That is why I bought a Montana. If Keystone had met my expectations, then I would feel comfortable in looking after the things over which I have control feeling safe in the knowledge that the manufacturer had done their job. That is all I ask whether from Keystone or SOB, sadly I do not have that warm cozy feeling"
Seems to me there have been those who have been informing you for years that as long as customers continue buying existing quality there is no reason for the manufacturers to improve.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #45
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Yes and Dean is beating a dead horse.Buyers will not boycott or stop buying Rv's to prove a point.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:35 PM   #46
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quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Yes and Dean is beating a dead horse.Buyers will not boycott or stop buying Rv's to prove a point.
One thing you might be overlooking is that the manufacturers keep track of repeat buyers. When that drops significantly management takes notice!
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:02 PM   #47
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I owned a SOB one time that had the cable slides [AS I SAID ONE TIME] JMHO. Seems like alot of frame flex in the newer models Maybe because they keep building bigger and heavyer ones and the frame is not increasing in size fast enough to carry the weight Don't know just sayin!
Bobby
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:23 PM   #48
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While on the Fall tour of the plant we got the opportunity to few and go throuogh the new 3900. I wish I had asked if the front end had been beefed up to support new weight of the bathroom and closet(with the washer/dryer hookup in it) ahead of the bedroom. Maybe someone from Keystone/Montana Division will read this and let us know if there is anymore support in this new model. IF NO RESPONSE from Montana maybe they will know at Q if they are able to bring one of the 3900's to the Circle! Of course the dealers are actually the last to know!

Dave could that tracking be one reason the Montana fell to #2 and the Alpine is now the top Luxury unit from Keystone!
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Yes and Dean is beating a dead horse.Buyers will not boycott or stop buying Rv's to prove a point.
One thing you might be overlooking is that the manufacturers keep track of repeat buyers. When that drops significantly management takes notice!
Apparently that has not happened with this brand or any other brand in any significant manner.The buyer woud have to stop buying all brands for any of them to take note. If one is gonna buy a Rv they will have to buy one of the brands and they all have the same quality problem.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:06 PM   #50
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Desert Rver wrote:

Quote:
quote:Seems to me there have been those who have been informing you for years that as long as customers continue buying existing quality there is no reason for the manufacturers to improve.
To the average consumer of recreational vehicles, quality will be viewed in different ways. Most will look at the decorative finish, convenience items, storage and floor plan, in other words “what they can see”. If these have the appearance of good quality and meet the other expectations of the buyer, that along with the promotional advertising, the brochures and the absolute BS presented by the sales people and manufacturers representatives, they will assume and be led to believe that “quality” exists and is good.

We are constantly bombarded with all the so-called improvements being made to the recreational vehicles we purchase. This is all sales hype, unfortunately most of us are taken in by this, since we are unable to see what is hidden from our view.

How are we to assess the “quality” of a product in the areas we cannot visually inspect or have little knowledge of. We “assume” obviously wrongly, that the quality that we see visually, is present in those things we cannot see. This is where the manufacturer is letting us down.

The demand for larger RV’s, with ever more options, that can still be pulled by the average 1 ton truck, requires the manufacturer to cut corners in order to produce these units and yet remain in the market at a competitive price. They make those cuts in the places we cannot see, and in area’s that are least likely to be seen or evident while the consumer owns the RV.

The consumer cannot assess the quality of any item without first making a purchase and testing it. To suggest there have been those telling us to simply not buy until the quality improves, simply eliminates the very process that determines whether quality exists in the first place.

Darn it we spend out hard earned retirement dollars on an expensive product we are led to believe is of high quality, we are not at fault for doing so, the manufacturer must take full responsibility for the lack of quality and quality control, not the consumer.

Quote:
quote:
Dave could that tracking be one reason the Montana fell to #2 and the Alpine is now the top Luxury unit from Keystone!
Who makes the claim that the “Alpine” is now the top luxury unit. Is it fancier in décor, does it have more options, and a new floor plan. The important thing is, “has the ongoing issues of frame flex, crap tires, poor welds, poor workmanship and quality control been addressed or is it simply new “hype” but more of the same. I suspect the latter.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Desert Rver wrote:

Quote:
quote:Seems to me there have been those who have been informing you for years that as long as customers continue buying existing quality there is no reason for the manufacturers to improve.
To the average consumer of recreational vehicles, quality will be viewed in different ways. Most will look at the decorative finish, convenience items, storage and floor plan, in other words “what they can see”. If these have the appearance of good quality and meet the other expectations of the buyer, that along with the promotional advertising, the brochures and the absolute BS presented by the sales people and manufacturers representatives, they will assume and be led to believe that “quality” exists and is good.

We are constantly bombarded with all the so-called improvements being made to the recreational vehicles we purchase. This is all sales hype, unfortunately most of us are taken in by this, since we are unable to see what is hidden from our view.

How are we to assess the “quality” of a product in the areas we cannot visually inspect or have little knowledge of. We “assume” obviously wrongly, that the quality that we see visually, is present in those things we cannot see. This is where the manufacturer is letting us down.

The demand for larger RV’s, with ever more options, that can still be pulled by the average 1 ton truck, requires the manufacturer to cut corners in order to produce these units and yet remain in the market at a competitive price. They make those cuts in the places we cannot see, and in area’s that are least likely to be seen or evident while the consumer owns the RV.

The consumer cannot assess the quality of any item without first making a purchase and testing it. To suggest there have been those telling us to simply not buy until the quality improves, simply eliminates the very process that determines whether quality exists in the first place.

Darn it we spend out hard earned retirement dollars on an expensive product we are led to believe is of high quality, we are not at fault for doing so, the manufacturer must take full responsibility for the lack of quality and quality control, not the consumer.

Quote:
quote:
Dave could that tracking be one reason the Montana fell to #2 and the Alpine is now the top Luxury unit from Keystone!
Who makes the claim that the “Alpine” is now the top luxury unit. Is it fancier in décor, does it have more options, and a new floor plan. The important thing is, “has the ongoing issues of frame flex, crap tires, poor welds, poor workmanship and quality control been addressed or is it simply new “hype” but more of the same. I suspect the latter.
I agree Keystone is better at marketing the hype, sizzle, bells and whistles. However, one would think second and third time buyers would learn to see past all that. But the Koolaid is addictive.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
quote:
I agree Keystone is better at marketing the hype, sizzle, bells and whistles. However, one would think second and third time buyers would learn to see past all that. But the Koolaid is addictive.
I agree 100% on repeat buyers, although we should recognize some will have experienced less problems than others simply due to the way they use their RV's. They may also have experienced more problems with another brand prior to buying a Keystone product. Unless there are significant changes made by Keystone it will be a frosty Friday before I buy another one.

I just viewed the Alpine video that starts off showing the frame, I don't care if they use a 16" frame, the upper deck area is still the same as my Montana, there has been no structural improvement in that area whatsoever, the flex continues. The problem isn't in the area of the frame that they have increased the size from 10" to 12", it is in the front end.

The Alpine may be fancier to look at, but unless they address the issues of quality control and re-design the front end there is "no" improvement, just sales hype.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:00 PM   #53
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Part of the problem is that we're mostly in the minority. We use our Montana's a lot. Many of us on the forum are full time. That means we tow farther and weigh more than the average owners who mostly leave theirs in storage between trips to the local lake. Those folks will buy over and over and since they don't belong to the forum won't realize problems are out there. That's not even considering the two couples we've met so far that use a Monty as a sort of sticks and bricks while they travel in a Class A. They'll buy a new one when the carpet wears out and have never pulled it down the road.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:07 AM   #54
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There should be a recall on these trailers to beef up the front end. This is the weak point. I will probably do that to my rig at some point. But it's a lot harder after the unit is built then during the initial built. Anyway I am keeping my eyes open for someone that might be capable of doing that.

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Old 11-23-2012, 03:12 AM   #55
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I agree Keystone is better at marketing the hype, sizzle, bells and whistles. However, one would think second and third time buyers would learn to see past all that. But the Koolaid is addictive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the issue is which other brand would you purchase in the Montana price range.This is a industry wide problem. Read other forums and you see the same issues. In our case we could not afford to pay much more and the so called higher quality brands were to heavy for our present truck.After 6 years of Montana ownership we did know and understand the quality issues but the other brands were no better.We did look hard at SOB's and would have purchased one IF we thought they were any better. The determining factor was the Keystones service when you need it.

we are not full timers but put over 60K hard miles on the 06 3400 as long timers. We did run heavy and it was a chore to stay below GVWR.We were shocked when we had our 06 weighed the first time at the fall rally and remember how many of those weighed were overweight and also how many folks would not be weighed.

It is my Opinion that shoddy workmanship and poor quality will and is catching up to many manufacturers. The first manufacturer that will bear the upfront cost to implement a effective quality program. Will benefit in the long run.Right now they are doing just fine primarily because most users are low end users and do not see the issues most of us see.A better solution to the problem is that more buyers use these things hard, more miles ect. Montana may have put themselves on the spot marketing the now Montana as a full time rig. More folks may purchase them as a full time rig and use them harder.Montana will have to live up to that marketing..we shall see

BTW Keystone lowered the status of the Montana line on their new web site.They did move it over to the Luxury slot but it is not ab Luxury as it was before.The Alpine took over that spot.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:32 PM   #56
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I would like to bring this thread to life again by asking those that posted about their Flex problems to update any information from their original post. I would like to ask the following questions:

1) Do you know exactly what was done to “fix” the problem, did the dealer explain the repair and how doing this would solve the problem.

2) Have you found that the problem no longer exists or have you noticed other issues related to the flex of the upper deck.

PapaBeau – 2012 – Front end was rebuilt (how was it rebuilt)

Carl n Susan – 2011 – Left side replaced ( was the entire left side of the unit replaced)

Woodtic – 2011 – Caulking on ODS had pulled away ( any resolution to this issue)

Montana3800RE – 2012 – Major problems on large bed slide. Ron is awaiting repairs as I am, and we seem to be in the same boat as far as the suggested method of repair.

Arcateq – 1010 – Front closet.

Chip – 2013 – closet damage.

Snfexpress – 2009 – Recurring problem in closet area.

I spoke to my dealer today regarding the proposed repair of the flex on the ODS where there is movement and the caulking is separating. The same repair procedure was suggested for Ron’s (Montana3800RE) unit. I would be happy to send a copy of both the Keystone “Inspection Procedure to Determine Degree of Flex” and the proposed repair to my ODS issue to anyone that wants to PM me.

My dealer has never performed this repair and could not explain to me the logic in doing this type of so called repair. He is waiting to hear back from the factory on that topic.
I really do not feel inclined to become the guinea pig for a local tech with possible dubious qualifications to perform this procedure for the first time.

The proposed solution to the closet panel on my unit is to replace the panel and put a plywood backing in the area of the drawer slide. That is to be explained to me tomorrow when I pick up my unit with no repairs yet having been done.

On all models of Montana, on the ODS below the Bed slide there is an expansion joint, this has been built into all recent models because they had a problem with the fiberglass outer skin cracking and breaking in that area due to flex. The problem has been around a long time and the expansion joint was intended to allow the movement created by the flex in the upper deck. Once again they did not deal with the issue of flex they just moved it from one place to another. My evaluation of the proposed repair for both Ron and I appears to be a reversal of the original intent of the expansion joint.

Lipperts method of checking for flex involves only the frame itself, the measurement from the frame on each side to the pin box, with weight on and off the pin box showed how much the “frame” was flexing. This in no way indicated the amount of flex happening to the rest of the structure. Keystone do not use that as their indicator, they have come up with a measurement taken at the expansion joint and only on the ODS. It does nothing to measure how much movement is in the closet or on the DS of unit.

There has to be significant movement in the upper deck to fracture the panel and bulge it to the extent that we see in photographs members have submitted, including my own.

I find myself in a battle not only with the dealer for not standing by “me” the customer, but also with Keystone with respect to the poor workmanship and their lack of willingness to go to whatever length is necessary to correct a problem.

The more we know about repairs done or proposed to other MOC members units, the better we will be informed as to the degree of occurrence of the issues and the impact of the completed repairs. We will know if the proposed repairs are consistent with all similar occurrences.

I do not know if I will allow the proposed repair to go ahead or not, I will make that decision based on the information I expect to be given from the dealer and Keystone. At any rate I am picking up my unit tomorrow and when the parts arrive and I am satisfied with what the proposed repairs entail I will return it to the dealer…Or not….

Thanks in advance for updating what is happening with your problems.

Leaving my profile off to conserve space….
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:45 PM   #57
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

1) Do you know exactly what was done to “fix” the problem, did the dealer explain the repair and how doing this would solve the problem.

2) Have you found that the problem no longer exists or have you noticed other issues related to the flex of the upper deck......

......
Carl n Susan – 2011 – Left side replaced ( was the entire left side of the unit replaced)
I had/have both the closet wall breakage and the flex problems on my 2012 3700RL. As I said, Keystone said they had never seen the flex problem before. I know others have had the closet wall problem but they may be correct on the flex issue. They took the RV to their Cougar plant in Pendleton OR to repair these issues and the other 11 items on my warranty repair list. I know they replaced the wall. I also know they didn't repair the closet wall or several other items on the list (despite their assurances they would fix everything at the plant). I am still waiting for the parts to correct the closet wall. The answers to your questions are:

1). No I don't know exactly what they did. I did get a call from Susan Rice in Dealer Relations to explain what they were going to do precess-wise (build a new wall in Goshen, truck it to OR where it would meet my RV and be installed). But exactly how it was to be installed and/or re-enforced was not discussed. The dealer doesn't know as Montana didn't tell them either. Both of us have tried to get an answer but Customer Relations and Dealer Relations at Montana and the Shop Manager in Pendleton do not answer emails or phone calls regarding the subject.

2). The flex has not re-occurred since the "repair". But the trailer has only been towed around 750-800 miles since. They brought it back from Pendleton (690 miles) and I got to use it one week for a trip (90 miles +/-) before it went back into the dealer. I had around 4,500 - 5,000 miles on the RV when the flex problem started.

The current thinking is the flex problem is separation of the wall from the frame. There is a new "field repair" process issued by Keystone/Montana to correct the problem. My dealer just did it to another 3700RL with the exact same problem. They didn't think it was too difficult, it just takes a lot of work.

The closet wall used to have a plywood vertical piece. Keystone/Montana went to a thin piece of luan to "save weight". Rebuilding the wall with an additional plywood backer has stopped the buckling problem in three rigs that I am aware of. I am told (but haven't verified) that the closet wall on units built after October are using a plywood reinforced vertical wall in the closet.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:26 PM   #58
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Thanks Carl, I really appreciate the feedback and your information. I hope your sidewall problems are now solved and you get a satisfactory resolution to your closet repair as well.

It appears that Keystone will now only authorize this "field repair" as a solution to the flex issue on the ODS. Supposedly it does occur due to separation of the outer wall from the frame. They are using a special epoxy glue that uses an applicator which Keystone will "loan" out to the dealers. The applicator costs around 250.00 apparently. This "kit" has been ordered for the repair of my ODS flex problem.

Please keep us updated on your situation.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:48 AM   #59
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Update:

The dealer has determined there is excessive flex. I don't know how he did that. The front cap is coming off for inspection and reinforcement. They plan on fixing the flex with the weight on the pin. The closet wall is to be replaced. Something about the bedroom slide as well.

I will call tomorrow and get a better update. I would like to go to the shop when they do the actual repair if possible and take pictures.

The above is per instructions from Keystone.

Chip
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:38 AM   #60
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Chip-- The only question I have is "Why are they fixing the flex with weight on the pin?" If they take off the front cap, lift the unit with the pin, and see where the flex is at(where the welds are broke or metal is separated)why would they fix it that way? I would think they would take the pressure off it again reweld the framework AND REINFORCE it with more bracing while it is in the normal/unhooked position. IF they repair it while it is lifted there will be the gap and or separation and that would throw the front framework off IMHO. That's just my opinion but who knows, I'm not an expert on metal framework!
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