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Old 01-11-2008, 11:14 AM   #21
8.1al
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Michael,
those brackets are much longer also. It's interesting that they put the springs under the axle which lowers the trailer and then they have to use loooong brackets to get it back up to where it would be if they put the spring on top to begin with.

I would report this failure to the National Highway traffic safety administration, this is the sort of thing they should be aware of.
 
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:03 PM   #22
hazmic
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That is how I would fix the brackets by putting in the gussets or boxing them. That is the way they should all be and before installing them heat treat to relieve any metal stress in them. I think your problems are fixed. Now all they have is how many more to go?
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:00 PM   #23
richfaa
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Mike. I am going to copy your post and the pictures for the Tampa Rv show.This could be a isolated incident but I would like to let the Keystone folks tell me why it is not..
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:34 PM   #24
snfexpress
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And, just to be clear, I am within weight specifications of each axle.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:11 PM   #25
richfaa
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Let me explain way I am concerned and not just trying to make trouble. These are Rv's designed for occasional use.There are many of us, myself included, that use them for far more than that.We do 12 K miles + a year , some do more.The design spec's for those brackets may be well within that for occasional use.We may be using them beyond the spec's they were designed for.I need to know the answer. failure of both those brackets while on the road could have been catastrophic. Just as we purchased the right truck for the job we need to have the right camper for the job. We can tolerate cabinets and doors falling off, holding tank leaks, etc but not the rear axle seperating from the camper while doing 65MPH due to a 3/16 bracket that should be 1/4. It may very well be my fault that we did not purchase the proper camper for what we use it for. If not
we will buy one that does. Sorry but our safety is at issue and we need to know.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:45 PM   #26
snfexpress
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I hate to show my ignorance, but in another post, Phil (pparamore) stated that he checks the shackles EACH time he moves the 5er. He also checks for air pressure, etc. I, too, look underneath, but I wasn't really sure at what I was looking at - I am not a mechanic.

When I first saw the broken bracket, I thought that it was weird, but - hey, it's a 5er - maybe this is the way it is supposed to be. Only when I carefully compared it to the other side did I realize that I had a problem. I guess I'm pretty stupid about this stuff.
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:05 PM   #27
noneck
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snfexpress...you fool us NOT! Your skills and comments are clear and on point. I am still puzzled by your issue failing on both rear hangers. That signature pic shows the trailer hitched up is pretty close to level and no way should be overloading the backside. Troubling...very troubling...really like to understand root cause to avoid wondering if it will re-occur and understand where our Monty is in regards to this issue.
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Old 01-11-2008, 04:56 PM   #28
jjackflash
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We purchased our 2008 3400 in Nov. and haven't taken it out yet.Iam slowly
wondering if we made the right choice.
Things like this scare the hell out of me,being a newbie with a fifth wheeler Iam worried about all of the do's and don't with setting up and taking down procedures etc,now structure break-down?
This particular incident is a life or death situation and should generate a re-call.
Thank God for this forum and all it's informative members.
My thanks to all of you.
Jack
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:15 PM   #29
fulltimedreamer
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Michael,

Thanks for the headsup and the pictures. I will add this to my inspection list. Looks like the welder did a good job. Hopefully, this will not be a recurring problem for you. Also, the Alumascape brackets do look quite a bit stronger. Maybe because they made them longer, they had to make them stronger. Anyway, they certainly look more substantial than what I've seen on other coaches.
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Old 01-12-2008, 03:21 AM   #30
hazmic
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They are 3/16 thick and when you bend them it makes it thinner so where they broke it could only be 1/8 thick. Getting thin for the stress that they go through. Rich,please post hear their answer as this is the same issue as the pin box-frame flex problem.
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Old 01-12-2008, 04:11 AM   #31
richfaa
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You know there are two kinds of Montana users here. Those of us that put a LOT of road miles on these things and with increased use comes increased wear and tear and failures such as snfexpress and those that use them as a "recreational vehicle" the intended use.We have had 4 previous campers used as Recreational vehicles and have put nearly as many road miles on this Montana in 19 months as we put on the previous 4 campers combined.We had few problems of any kind with our previous campers in the way we used them. My concern is are these problems a result of increased use. I would not be overly concerned if we were using the camper on a occasional bases. If we need a better camper for the way we use it we need to know..and we will buy one..
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:54 AM   #32
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Well, I thought my rear axle bracket failures were just me, but noooooooo. Last year on the way back to Idaho from Florida, we dumped tanks about 20 miles from home, drove down the road a bit and blew out the right rear tire - for info it sounds like a beer can opening. We both looked in the rear view mirror and saw much smoke. The axle support bracket legs were completely sheared on the rear axle driver side and one leg was sheared on the passenger side. The sharp left turn into the dump station probably sheared the passenger side, bent the remaining right leg, and slid the axle to the left, causing the tire to rub against the square operating rod for the kitchen slide.
This is what I found - on the left side - one leg at the corner bend had an old fatigue fracture - probably from an Alaskan trip. The other leg was a relatively fresh fatigue fracture and the right one also a fresh fatigue fracture. Took the operating rod off (no mean task beside a 2-lane highway) and drove home slowly. I had a welder replace the brackets (got from local Montana dealer) after I ground them off. I also found that that there was no penetration of the weld to the frame on the inside edge of the right side bracket - just an accident waiting to happen by itself. I made sure we got good penetration all around on the new brackets.
This is clearly a case of bad design/manufacture since the weld heat-effected zone is right at the bracket bend, so you get the cold worked joint strain along with quenching the heat-effected zone from welding, both of which make the bend area brittle.
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Old 01-12-2008, 06:16 AM   #33
richfaa
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It always seem to work that way.. Someone reports a serious problem that we never heard of before and lo and behold here come other reports of the same problem. jimc posts re enforces that the bracket failure may be due to increased use..A bad thing for me. We will copy this post for the Tampa Rv show. Aram will be there and he will get this information.... Any more out there?? and a lesson learned....lets not be shy about reporting thse failures.
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:04 AM   #34
hazmic
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It will be interesting to see what Aram has to say about this. I know you will post what happens. This is the same thing as the issue about the frames. There is such a thing as product liability that comes to light here. Like I said before these brackets are inferior and not made properly. Your truck[and everyone else's] spring hangers are Not made this way and they do not have the weight on them or the stress. This also is not only a Keystone issue but also RV industry issue. I have checked mine off and on since new because of the way they are built and will discuss them more with the dealer when I return home.
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Old 01-12-2008, 10:16 AM   #35
richfaa
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From the RVIA....
"An RV is a vehicle designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, travel or season use. RVs may be motorized (motorhomes) or towable (travel trailers, folding camping trailers and truck campers). Off-read vehicles are not included in the RV definition"

This is what they are designed for, A full timer does not use it that way...We do not use ours that way.My guess is the design specs are with the above in mind. When we purchase a camper we have to choose based on how we use the camper. We need a camper that will withstand the rigors of 12/15K miles a year.perhaps we made the wrong choice..perhaps there is not a "right" choice out there. Perhaps we need to make a series of mods to bring it up to the standards of use we need..????? I will post what I find out..good or bad.. My Truck IS designed to travel 100s of thousands of miles under the worst conditions and reasonably hold up..far from a RV and its design criteria. Interesting stuff is it not...
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Old 01-12-2008, 03:08 PM   #36
mobilrvn
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We posted in Nov our problems with the equalizer brackets on both side tearing from the frame, so don't think it is an isolated problem. We are within wts. etc.

If a 5W is supposed to be used only for a limited amount of use, then the mfgr. needs to post some type of warning. Since there is no odometer installed on our rigs, what should the use be? Quit making excuses for poorly designed rigs! We don't live in that world, so only have an opinion, but there sure doesn't seem to be many problems with the OTR trailers. We hauled our '94 Kit Road Ranger for eleven years and must have put at least 175,000 miles on it including Alaska and every state in Mexico. Did have to replace the springs (and tires, of course) and that was it as far as any towing/frame problems. It did have a 12" frame main beam---could it be that it used sufficient materials to do the job? After our four frame breaks on the Montana, we vote for poor workmanship/materials!
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Old 01-12-2008, 04:17 PM   #37
Imp
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Bob checked our axle brackets and he said they look good and appear to be solidly welded.
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:16 PM   #38
racerjoe
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You all make some good points. The RV dealers and manufacturers always tell you how good and dependable there units are when trying to sell you one,but of course they have no solid evidence of it. to make a sale they will tell you they almost will tow themselves to make a sale.But the more you keep reading on these sites about the problems everyone is having with these units it is starting to worry me about long term dependability. maybe it is time for all manufacturers to step up and start putting a warranty in place that matched the cost of these units. Like i have said before,when you buy your $50k tow rig you expect a solid warranty from the maker.Why not the RV industry also??? You pay the same or MORE for your RV, so why don't we get at least the same or better warranty then our tow rigs??
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:13 AM   #39
richfaa
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I sure do agree about poor workmanship and low quality vendor supplied items..However i stand by the RVIA definition of the RV

"From the RVIA....
"An RV is a vehicle designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, travel or season use. RVs may be motorized (motorhomes) or towable (travel trailers, folding camping trailers and truck campers). Off-read vehicles are not included in the RV definition"


They are not designed for the way many of us use them not to say that they should not be or we should have the option available like in our trucks. (heavy Duty)
Of course no dealer or manufacture is going to tell you why you should not purchase their product..not very good marketing.. IMO it is, in very large part the responsibility of the purchaser to do the homework as best they can, instead of believing in the marketing. Our previous campers were all TT's with no frame issues but the stress on a 5th wheel frame is much different that the stress on a TT frame and our heaviest TT was less than 1/2 the max weight of this 3400. Problems like this and the efforts of some folks who will take the manufacture to task may have some impact on product improvement. Oh.. and the bracket is a Lippert provided item..but it is a Keystone responsibility..it is on a Keystone product....And just the term RV..says it is for a limited amount of use as the RVIA definition says.... And''I am defending no one..Just stating the issues as "I" see them.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:11 AM   #40
sreigle
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Mobilrvn, I'm glad you had good luck with the RoadRanger, by Kit. Not everyone has had good luck with those. My brother has a Kit RoadRanger. It's a whole lot lighter than my Montana and construction, insulation, etc. is for weekend use and occasional vacations. It would never hold up to prolonged use. It's had enough trouble trying to hold up to weekend use. But I'm glad you had good luck with yours.
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