Need some advise on thisn one

[richfaa]

Yes Michelle all of that was checked. A fellow MOC'er here who is a certified electrician did the trouble shooting. We did not have the proper manual for our tank. It is a SW-12DEL suburban E mailed us the proper manual and it has a really good set of prints for the tank. There are just areas of the tank we can not get to without tearing the Montana apart great design and we have voiced our displeasure to Keystone on the design. The folks we use for RV repair here and as I said they are on speed dial told me they pull the unit out to work on it.

[BB_TX]

Rich - can you post a picture of the schematic they sent you? I don't have an inside switch, but am curious as to how the inside switch works in relation to the outside switch.

[richfaa]

Bill//I will try. I did copy the print.

[psomers]

The switches are in series. Wire from heating element goes to switch in water heater to inside switch then to circuit breaker. If you want to add inside switch easy to do. I had to add one to my Mountaineer as Mountaineers don't come with inside switch.

[richfaa]

The prints are clear. Getting to the junction boxes to troubleshoot or repair is the problem.

[richfaa]

BTW. If you have the Suburban SW-12DEl check your manual for the proper manual. If you do not have the proper manual call Suburban at 423-775-2131 and they will E mail you the complete manual. If you have the proper manual the prints are there.

[BB_TX]

Rich - I can find on-line manuals for the various models of water heaters. But I have not found one that shows how the inside switch is wired to the water heater. I have read that the inside switch is simply 120 vac wired in series with the outside switch. But I have also read the the inside switch is 12 vdc operating a relay that connects 120 vac to the outside switch.
As I said, I do not have an inside switch on my current Montana, but am curious as to how those that do have them actually work.

[richfaa]

Bil/ we are having a issue coping from the printer to the Pc but we will figure it out.

[RRman]

Sorry about so hard to get to the Box on the Heater. I wonder why that is?
Mine "lost" power (no ground/neutral) years ago, so I ran a neutral/ground wire from that side of the WH element to a mounting screw (ground) on the water heater. Had to replace the little Black Rocker Switch over a year ago. Worked great until this past summer.

WH Box shorted out this summer (Oops, probably related to the legacy issue) and set the insulation on fire along with taking out the little Black Rocker Switch. I could get to our WH Box from the Trash can drawer (also the back of the WH where the Check Valve (Removed 2 years ago due to failure) and Bypass Valve (for winterizing are (which is NOT how I winterize)).

At that time I wondered if I needed a new WH, but on reflection decided I could rewire this very simple device more successfully than Suburban did.

Two screws on the WH outside panel (where the Thermostat, Element, etc are) hold the box in place and should be easy to remove.

After the WH short destroyed the wiring in the box (and the little rocker switch on the WH) along with internal wire to the Thermostat, I rewired the entire circuit using Romex and Wire to rewire the wires to the Thermostat (easy to fish - but had to order a new press-on 90 degree wire connector) and installed a Residential Wall Switch inside the RV to REPLACE the little cheap Black rocker switch (which I had to previously replace) on the WH. Others have done the same. That also eliminated my external ground wire workaround from years ago.

Not too impressed with Suburban's assembly (loose wire nuts?) which led to the ground failure years ago and the recent dangerous short situation (and underated rocker switch).


Good Luck!

[richfaa]

We had no problem with the WH in our 06 3400 in the nearly 7 years we had it. It is hard to believe that youneed tom tear the camper apart to get to the junction boxes on the WH. The Mobile tech will be here Thursday to do the tearing and fix.

[racerjoe]

Rich, I hope this isn't a repeat of a suggestion, but is there a way to disconnect water lines and slide heater out to repair it and then slide it back into place?

[richfaa]

Wish it were that easy. Would have to slide it out through the side of the RV. Will let the pro's that.

[Irlpguy]

Rich your problems got me to wondering just how the Suburban 12 gal hot water heater works.

I downloaded what information I could find on your unit and mine which are virtually the same.
If you note on page 4 - http://www.lsrv.info/david/Suburban%...%20REV%20A.pdf - you will see that the 12V circuit has a circuit board that operates the spark and gas valves, relight controls and faults during propane use only. It has no connections to 120V whatsoever and has nothing to do with the operation of the 120V.

Note also the 120V diagram and you will see how that is wired...except it does not show what is going on in the 120V junction box, the information from Suburban only shows what the wiring in the heater is, the junction box allows for connection to whatever the end user wishes to employ to turn on the 120V to the built in wiring.

I assume you have the two switches on your main control panel similar to what you had in your previous 3402RL as I do in my 2012. One for gas and one for electric with a light in the middle.
If you have 120V on both sides of the main breaker and the wire is tight at that point then it is ok.
There are two possible ways of wiring the inside rocker switch into the circuit.

1) 120V from the main breaker goes directly to junction box on the heater and the hot is fed back to and from the panel rocker switch prior to being connected to the internal wiring of the heater within the junction box. This allows you to control the electric from inside your RV.

2) 120V hot wire from main breaker goes into and out of the rocker switch on the wall panel before going to the junction box on the beater and thence connected to the internal wiring of the heater. Again this allows you to turn the 120V on from inside your unit.

In both of the above methods the neutral would go directly to the junction box located on the heater.

Not having 120V at the panel rocker could result from two things based on the two methods of wiring as mentioned above.

In method one the power is either not getting to the junction box directly from the main breaker or there is a connection issue where 120V is fed back to the rocker switch.

If method two is used and no power at the rocker, there would have to be a problem between the main breaker and the rocker switch.

The rocker switch mounted on the heater is part of the factory wiring of the heater, power from the junction box would go this switch then on to the thermostat and high temp switch then to the element. These components are wired in series so a failure in any one would result in no power to the element.

There is no 12V activated relay in the 120V circuit..

Hope I have not further confused you and wish I could draw a diagram to illustrate what I am saying.

After all other possibilities have been eliminated I would pull the hot water heater to get at the junction box as that is all that remains.

[richfaa]

the gas side is working properly so we do have hot water. We have the prints sent from Suburban. A MOC member and certified Electrician did the troubleshooting for me. We believe the problem to be in the 120 junction box and the tank will have to be pulled.

[RRman]

Yes, if its not the little Rocker Switch, its probably bad connections (Just Wire Nuts) in the Box. On Reflection, its probably Keystone's fault for not making sure their ROMEX connection to the WH Box was solid vs. marginal. But I can still blame Suburban for a cheesy Rocker Switch.

[richfaa]

We have been on electric for the Tank since we got here in Mid October and it just quit a few days ago. Same as our two holding tanks that failed last season after sitting here on the lot for two months.

[richfaa]

Camping connection corrected the problem. The hot and neutral had fused together just before the 120 relay on the tank. It was not a suburban problem but poor workmanship on Keystones part. Cost to me 139.97 most of it service call and labor. Would that be listed as a "minimal problem"

[K0LCB]

Richard, have you considered a different campground? That one seems to cause you lots of problems.

[richfaa]

Does not seem to make any difference which campground we stay in The Montana fails at all of them but it is a good idea. How
ever this one is handy to the mobile repair facility and we have them on speed dial.

[bigskyjimmy]

Man Rich, I know we always say All brands have there problems but all the problems you have had with both of your Montana's and a lot of us have had very few makes me think Montana's just are not the Brand for you ,you seem to have bad MOJO with Monty's