Frozen pipes may be a thing of the past

[sreigle]

Well, at least in the 2005 models. Either Jeff or Coleman (drat, can't remember which) at the Tampa show told me the new Montanas no longer have the water pipes in the belly! They're now between the floor rails just below the floor.

Now, if I can just figure out how to move them in ours. And I forgot to check to see if there's been a change in the low point drains. Anybody notice?

[Gene Chaltry]

Steve, On mine the low point drains are still hanging below the belly.

[Gypsy]

Mine, too.

[BillyRay]

I can't see where they could possibly be anywhere else.

[sreigle]

A Keystone rep at the factory service center told me that to meet the RVIA standards the low point drains must be easily accessible. They hadn't figured out how to meet that requirement and still make them less freeze-susceptible. Since the new models have the water lines higher up, in the floor rail area, the low point drains probably are no longer a problem with causing freezing to shut down the water system. Those drains probably have a longer run and don't freeze up far enough to block the lines. Just surmising but it makes sense to me.

[Native Tex]

sreigle we have been in low teen temps and have not had any pipes to freeze at this point. In fact, I just got back from the storage facility where we keep ours between trips and the water is not frozen even thought it got to 14 degrees here last night. I had not taken the time to winterize from our trip a week back and did not realize that it was going to get that cold. I did take the time to pump it full of the pink stuff as it is to get to 13 tonight. I did not want to press my luck. At any rate, the basement does get cold, but not to the point of freezing the pipes; at least here in the south.

[cargary]

Steve:
I called the Keystone customer service number and spoke to a gal who I believe identified herself as Tammy. The purpose of my call was to check on a rumor related to the installation of a hitch on the rear of a Montana and while I had her on the phone, I asked her if she knew if all the new Montana's (the 2005 models) had the water lines located in the belly or between the rails of the floor. She didn't know and had to check with someone and then told me that only the 05 Mountaineer had this upgrade - that is, the water lines are now located in between the rails of the floor. I sought this out because we have a 2005 3400rl and wanted to know if ours was one that had this change made to it. Unfortunately not, according to this gal. Thought you might want to know what I was told.
Gary & Carole

[trukdoc]

That is good news to me. I will have to look and see how the pipes are run. I know I have not had any problem. I set the furnace at 45, wraped the low point drains with that aluminum insulating tape and that has been the extent on my winterizing. We have had a few mornings in the mid teens from the time we brought Rosie home in Nov.
My old motorhome would be froze solid under the same conditions.

[sreigle]

Native Tex, that sounds promising. We used to freeze up at around 22. Then I did some insulating and we were able to get down to about 14. I later did some more insulating and added heat tape to the low point drains. At 5 degrees I checked and we had full water flow. At minus 4, though, we froze up in the belly. That night we left the furnace set on 65 to get a more than usual amount of warm air into the belly. I also had a heat taped water hose, heat taped park water source pipe, and a five gallon bucket full of insulation over the park's spigot. Glad to hear the '05 is performing well in the cold. I've never had the pipes freeze in the basement but I do have them mostly covered with the foam pipe insulation. I have a few bare spots but have been ok there. Thanks for the update on the '05.

Cargary, I don't know what to tell you . I have to wonder if that person really understood the question or really knows the answer. I was told this information by either Jeff Rank, who is VP of Keystone over Montana Division or Coleman Davis who is the son of the founder of Keystone, both in position to know. What I don't know is whether the pipes are in the flooring area for all '05 models or if it was a running change during the model year. Thanks for the info but I do have to wonder. If you call them again for some reason it would be interesting to hear what someone else says.

Trukdoc, thanks for the update on yours, too. I'm not sure if Jeff/Coleman meant both the Mountaineer and Montana or just Montana. It makes sense they'd do this on both production lines but I don't know for sure.

Billy Ray, I didn't mean to ask if they're below the belly but whether there was any change, like an enclosure with door or maybe they're shorter than in the past or something like that. Sorry for the confusion.

[rames14]

Steve -

On our '05 3400, the low point drains hang down and are not enclosed, although they do have the foam insulation around the opening. I went back and looked at the photos from the rally and the water lines follow the side rail of the underbelly.

[sreigle]

Ron, if those at the tour were still in the belly then I guess moving them up out of the belly into the floor rail area was a running change on the later '05s. Thanks, I didn't think to go look at those pictures.

[Broome101]

Steve,
Our 05 3685FL which we got in September of 04' the water lines are in same place as our 02' model no change on mine.

[Native Tex]

I guess I need to see some picture to see what you all are referring to; all I can say is that the lines I see are mostly down in the mid section of the 3400. I am sure it is due to the layout of the unit, but when you look under the kitchen sink the linesrun right under the floor to the upstair. (You can open the witerization door and see all the lines entering the unit.) When you open the belly doors, the lines split to the shower, the vanity, and the toilet. Even the lines from the fresh water tank can be see where they enter under the semi-island kitchen along with the back of the hotwater heater and the outside shower. The only line that is even close to the outside wall is the one line that feeds the vanity. They did not freeze in the low teen temps. Someone did something right at the factory.

[sreigle]

Thanks for all the replies. I may have created some confusion and/or I am confused. What I reported above was based on a brief conversation at the Tampa RV Show. The comment was that the lines are now between the floor rails, which should eliminate the freezing problem. Maybe I took that to mean they are no longer in the belly, as I stated above. What it may actually mean is that they are no longer near or next to the frame rails. Some of you may recall reports from members that they found the lines laying against the frame rails, causing them to freeze in cold weather despite the furnace duct in the belly. If what he meant was they now run down the center and are above the floor joists to keep them off the frame, they would still be in the belly but it would bring them closer to the heat inside the coach and would keep them off the frame. And, being higher in the belly, where the heat will congregate, would keep them in the warmer parts of the belly. Just some thoughts with no basis in fact beyond what I was told by Coleman or Jeff. The rest is just trying to figure this out.

Native Tex, I should clarify my terms, at least as I intended them. If you are opening doors from outside, I would call that the "basement". It's the storage area with outside access plus the laundry basket. When I say "belly" I'm referring to the area under the floor of the downstairs area. To see what's in there you have to drop some screws out of the belly pan covering the bottom of the rig. Sorry if I confused anyone.

[RC and Samantha]

I too heard they were working toward that goal at the Rally.

Our RV Shows haven't started here yet, but we're hoping to attend at least one of them soon. Can't wait to see those new rigs.

[Starchmill]

Oh I hope this is true about the Mountaineer! I did notice the low point drains have a heavy bee-nest size mound of foam insulation around them. We'll have to see how things hold up under colder conditions. Glad I'm not out there trying it out tonite! Temps are well below -5 around here, plus there is a wind chill.

[Random Line]

[quote]Originally posted by sreigle

A Keystone rep at the factory service center told me that to meet the RVIA standards the low point drains must be easily accessible. They hadn't figured out how to meet that requirement and still make them less freeze-susceptible. Since the new models have the water lines higher up, in the floor rail area, the low point drains probably are no longer a problem with causing freezing to shut down the water system.
-----------------
Steve,

That sounds right for the hot and cold "City " water lines. The on board water tank will need raising to get it's drain up and within a heated space.

[sreigle]

Jim, I didn't think about the fresh water tank drain but, you know what's odd about this? When we froze up at minus 5 F a few weeks ago, we were able to use the pump to get cold water to the bathroom, which is near the tank and the pump. So apparently either the drain for the fresh water tank didn't freeze or maybe the drain is separate from the line out of the tank to the water system??

We were thankful to have cold water to the toilet (so we didn't have to run to the shower house in the middle of the frigid night) and to the bathroom vanity so we had drinking water. If we needed hot water, we could heat it on the stove. I did trip to the shower house to shave and shower, though.

[Montana_657]

The drain comes out of the bottom of the fresh tank. If you want to get it up inside the heated area plumb in an outdoor hose bib... has to be a short one....then you have a knob outside and the valve part is up in the heated underbelly.

Funny how Cedar Creek can manage this but Keystone can't.......

[Random Line]

[quote]Originally posted by RC and Samantha

I too heard they were working toward that goal at the Rally.
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RC & Samantha,

Great photo. Are you selling realestate in Montana?

Happy travels.