Frame Flex Again

[Chip]

Iripguy

Sent you a PM

Chip

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

Since the factory is over a 4,000 mile round trip for us your advice doesn't hit the mark very well.

Since nothing in your signature tells me where you are located, it's tough to know you are 2,000 miles away. Be that as it may, the advice stands. There have been tons of posts on this site about frame flex. Fixing it isn't magic, but some dealers seem incapable of doing it, either through ignorance or negligence. I know that leaves folks like you in a tough spot. Basically you have two options: find a dealer who knows how to fix them and will, or make the 4,000 mile trek (seeing some more of our beautiful country as you do). To find a dealer closer to you who can do the needed repairs, search the forums or ask for members who have had the repair done successfully for their input. If you do decide to make the long trek - and take in the Fall Rally while you do, look me up and I'll buy you a root beer (I don't drink) and we can discuss our problems.

[GreatWhite]

I realize I'm the new guy on the block... but, I'm horrified in reading this. In other places here on MOG I read that Keystone is great and will treat you right. I think I'm truly sorry I purchased my Mountaineer. The Hitchhiker I had in the past was wonderful as was my Alpenlite. Yes, I guess the glitz and layout of the Mountaineer "sold us" but it sounds like the service from Keystone is horrible.

So, this said.. Do any of you have secondary insurance, such as Wholesale Warrantees that can handle repairs such as this w/o going to Keystone?

I'm also very curious why Keystone doesn't monitor this forum. Some of my past RV's had people that either overtly or passively monitored.

Guess I better hope mine was not built on Monday or Friday.

[8.1al]

quote:Originally posted by GreatWhite

I realize I'm the new guy on the block... but, I'm horrified in reading this. In other places here on MOG I read that Keystone is great and will treat you right. I think I'm truly sorry I purchased my Mountaineer. The Hitchhiker I had in the past was wonderful as was my Alpenlite. Yes, I guess the glitz and layout of the Mountaineer "sold us" but it sounds like the service from Keystone is horrible.

So, this said.. Do any of you have secondary insurance, such as Wholesale Warrantees that can handle repairs such as this w/o going to Keystone?

I'm also very curious why Keystone doesn't monitor this forum. Some of my past RV's had people that either overtly or passively monitored.

Guess I better hope mine was not built on Monday or Friday.

When I first joined the MOC I too was horrified then someone told me to bear in mind that these problems are not happening to everyone.
I have found that in most cases Montana has been good about fixing problems even long,long after the warranty runs out. In many cases the problem lies with the dealer. The dealer is your go between and if they don't care about you it's tough getting things done. You have to do all you can to bypass them.

As far as monitoring the site goes Montana has in the past and I see know reason they wouldn't now as it's in their best interest to do so

[Irlpguy]

quote:
8.1al wrote:

When I first joined the MOC I too was horrified then someone told me to bear in mind that these problems are not happening to everyone.
I have found that in most cases Montana has been good about fixing problems even long,long after the warranty runs out. In many cases the problem lies with the dealer. The dealer is your go between and if they don't care about you it's tough getting things done. You have to do all you can to bypass them.

As far as monitoring the site goes Montana has in the past and I see know reason they wouldn't now as it's in their best interest to do so

Charlie is right about not everyone having these problems GreatWhite and in many, many cases owners problems have been dealt with in admirable fashion by Keystone or their dealer.
However I would like to point out that in the case of the OP, he went right to the Keystone factory in Pendleton, Oregon and was told to see his dealer.

I am sure in Ron's case and in mine the flex "field repair" was performed according to the instructions given by the Keystone factory. I as well as Ron inspected our units during this process and can assure you what was done, does in no way address the issue of the flex in the frame. Nothing was done to the frame, the "fix" involved re-gluing the fiberglass side to the aluminum frame where they had separated due to this same frame flex. For Keystone to suggest the "field repair" solves the flex problem is no more than a cruel joke on the owners.

It was only after my insistence that the dealer even bothered to look and see if there were any cracks or broken welds in the overhead frame structure, none were found in the limited view they had with the removal of only a portion of the cover. If owners actually saw what we have seen they would have a better understanding of where and why the frame flex occurs and only a redesign of the frame in this area will address the problem.

In order for these units to be made larger, lighter and cheaper the factory cuts corners, thin wall materials are used, less supports are installed, cheaper overall materials (other than the visible cosmetic woodwork and material). This all results in a structure that just has to flex particularly the frame that supports the upper level.

There are problems with every manufacturer of RV's, I do not think Keystone is any worse or any better than most others. Being number one does not necessarily mean you have the best product, it might just mean you have the largest sales and distribution system in the industry. I know one thing if I could get my money back and my old SOB I would do so in a heartbeat. It was smaller and not quite as fancy and allowed less storage but in the two years I owned it I had only a few very small issues. Compare that to my experience with the #1 Montana and I used to own a better unit.

I don't know if Keystone monitor this forum or not. If they do they do not jump in and offer to resolve issues for folks like the OP and others. What a novel idea and one that would significantly relieve the worries of new and prospective buyers regarding warranty.

Being #1 in sales brings with it responsibilities, and that includes the dealer network being able to handle warranty on a equal or higher level than the sales staff of the dealers, and to perform that warranty to factory standards. No one should have to take their unit across the country to have a warranty issue dealt with at the factory repair location.

There are many places I want to visit in America, having a warranty issue dictate where I go does not fly with me, because Goshen, Indiana is not on my list of places to visit.

To end this portion of my further ranting I want to point out that the MOC is a very "small" portion of the owners of Keystone products and there are many on this forum who will weekend in their units and may never encounter the problems others have encountered. My unit was purchased so that we could travel and enjoy our retirement seeing many area's over a more extended period of time.

[bjlks]

This reminds me why we got rid of ours. I hope Keystone will step up to the plate for you, they left us out in left field.

[8.1al]

Irlpguy, I know how you feel having been down that road. I sincerely hope you can get your problem resolved with no more grief

[Drifty1]

I also believe my trailer is starting to flex on the starboard side as I have noticed a problem in the trim caulking on the curved area in front of the landing gear. I need to address this but I have had limited energy as I am recovering from my 4th surgery on my knee. I have the feeling that some owner is going to have to have a complete failure of the pin area while traveling down the road at 60 mph and hurting or worst yet killing someone and being sued by an insurance company before they will take this seriously.... I do not think I should have to loose everything I have spent my life working for just so Keystone can make a few bucks. Keystone support your product!!

[Tom S.]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

There are many places I want to visit in America, having a warranty issue dictate where I go does not fly with me, because Goshen, Indiana is not on my list of places to visit.

That's too bad, because it's almost heaven.... oh wait, that was West Virginia. But Indiana's not bad either!

[Irlpguy]

In spite of all the negative aspects of this thread, there are some good things happening. For one, I think the flex problem has been identified as being far more widespread than the dealers and Keystone would want anyone to believe. Also I think people like Dexter and others will step up and make things right even if the dealers and Keystone want to wash their hands of the problems after a year. I am hoping that will be true on my axle issue and at present am confident that Dexter will come through for me.

I will be able to use my Montana once the axle issue is dealt with, however I fully expect the flexing frame will show it's head again in some way on my unit and I will have to deal with that at that time. I surely hope there will never have be a catastrophic failure to have Keystone pay attention to this serious issue.

I most of all hope the OP will have his significant problem dealt with in a fair and timely manner, as well as those just now identifying the problem as existing on their own units, and those who will most assuredly suffer the problem in the future.

GreatWhite I bought an extended warranty when I purchased my unit and every time I have gone to my dealer they have asked me if I had it, even when the repairs were being done under Keystone warranty. The first question I was asked when the issue of the axles was brought to their attention was "do you have extended warranty". They had no idea what the warranty was on the components in the RV and did not seem at all interested in having that knowledge at their fingertips. (in this case as in others I was talking to the Service Manager). I will only use the extended warranty as a last resort to attempt to get something fixed. In a lot of cases I would rather fix the problem myself than trust the repair to someone who's qualifications I know nothing about.

Tom S. I in no way was implying that Indiana was a less desirable place to visit than other areas of the US, one day I may indeed visit the Eastern states but I want to do it because it is in my plans, not because I have to drive 5000 miles to get a problem with my Montana resolved, I suspect you already have figured that out however. Don't be confusing me with other song titles, I am still leaning toward "Back to Indiana"... As soon as I get finished fixing my Monty I am going to get right on the book and song.

Ron I hope you are in some way enjoying the holiday weekend and have had an extra CC for me. Keep us up to date on your rig. In the meantime hitch those two four legged critters up to the Monty, your speed will be reduced but it might be easier on the frame..... and think of the photo ops and gawkers, heck man you might also become rich n famous and be able to afford a really good RV... If all else fails just write a mournful cowboy song and give Vince Gill a call.

[snfexpress]

We have some problems with our front closet and this is after the service center removing our front cap and investigating. I wrote an email to Aram, before his departure, and we have a responding email saying that they will honor any repairs: our rig is a 2009.

[richfaa]

Frame flex is caused by a broken wields in the overhang of the 5th wheel. Is that what we are talking about??

[Carl n Susan]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Frame flex is caused by a broken wields in the overhang of the 5th wheel. Is that what we are talking about??

Technically no it is not. The problem existent in the 3700/3800 models is wall separation from the frame. Very similar symptoms but not broken welds.

[Irlpguy]

quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Frame flex is caused by a broken wields in the overhang of the 5th wheel. Is that what we are talking about??


Technically no it is not. The problem existent in the 3700/3800 models is wall separation from the frame. Very similar symptoms but not broken welds.

Frame flex manifests itself in several different ways. On some, separation of the outer wall from the aluminum wall frame occurs at the area of the bedroom slide, this is what happened to mine, however the other side of the upper deck had the same upward flex and that became evident by the movement of the wall panel which separates the closet from the door and drawer on the right side, this flex buckled the panel causing it to crack and the staples attaching this area to the floor were all pulled out. That also happened to mine. So my frame flex was evident on both sides of my unit. Broken welds are the result of frame flex, they are not present to begin with and do not cause it to happen.

There were no broken welds on the Steel main frame of the overhead on my unit, if you go to the Lippert web site and look closely at the picture of the frame used on these units you will see there is very little support for the amount of weight that is put on the upper level. This support only extends back on the main frame to the bulkhead of the generator compartment and not beyond that. If you also look at the material used to create the upper deck you will see that the largest pieces used are 2 x 5 light wall tubing, the tubing that runs along both sides of the upper deck is then bent to create the rounded front end and 2 cross members are welded from side to side to support the hitch with a minimal amount of supports between those 2 cross members. The area that supports the floor of the upper deck is made using 1" square tubing running from the rear hitch cross member back to the back wall of the generator compartment.

The actual flex occurs when weight is put on the pin and the front of the upper deck moves upward in relation to the main frame, this movement occurs somewhere near the front of the generator compartment, but can be anywhere along the front of the upper deck frame to the back of the generator compartment. That is the only support for the upper deck.

Breaks in the welds may occur in any part of the support and upper deck structure, for the most part they seem to have occurred at the area of the cross members for the hitch since that is where the most movement will be when hitting some of those big dips that cause that bottoming out effect.

Another indication of frame flex is seen at the moulding that comes up from the landing gear area and out to the front cap, this occurs where it makes the curve to the front of the upper deck. The earliest indications sometimes are that the caulking has broken between the wall and that moulding.

If you poke your head around in the generator compartment and the propane compartments you can see some of the upper deck support structure. Both Ron and I and perhaps others have seen the whole underside of the upper deck when the covers were removed. Anyone with any common sense at all would shake their head and wonder how this was ever expected to properly support the upper deck without problems.

On all units with the bedroom slide you will notice a moulding that only runs from the front of the slide opening down to the bottom of the upper deck, about 6". This hides a cut in the outer wall that acts as an expansion joint, before they put this cut in there the outer wall used to buckle and crack at that point because of the flexing of the frame.

Frame flex is exactly that "frame" flex and it is what causes the sidewall and closet panel wall problems, among other things.

I hope all our American friends have enjoyed the Memorial Day holiday.

[HOOK]

If a weld is properly done, it is stronger than the metal it binds. If there is a break in the area of a weld, it should be determined if the weld broke or the adjoining metal. If the weld itself is broken, that is good evidence of a poorly done weld. The hand that did the work is the problem. If the metal close to the weld is broken, that still could indicate too much heat or the hand that did the weld, yet it could mean weak metal or stress or poor engineering. A weld properly done should be the last failure. I'm sure that its a worrisome thing to have to deal with under any circumstance.
When I left the flight school at Rucker, we were still teaching that 99% of air accidents were pilot error (correct me if I'm wrong, Richfaa). Human error being ever present, we still must find ways to correct problems, some one can correct this.
Montana is still the most for the money, and history proves, that in most cases, when we do our part, Keystone will do theirs. IMHO

[richfaa]

Don't remember if the error was that high Larry (99%) but it was very high. I know there were two different kinds of flex. I had the sidewall separation flex but no welds were broken and nothing moved inside the camper ,had it twice. Some frame flex is normal as these things can not be rigid but broken welds.. if not overloaded..is inexcusable. I also know that there is data to show that over 60& of all campers weighed were overweight. I myself was over 1K overweight the first time we had weighing at the Fall Rally. However we were not over weight when we had the sidewall separation.

I am also sad to hear that the new graphics are not holding up. I hope this is being reported to Keystone and not just here on the forum.

[Irlpguy]

I am not a welder Larry, but when I saw some of the welds on the frame of my Montana I was shocked, the majority of welds visible to me were inconsistent and most had a lot of spatter around them. They were “not” what I would consider good welds and would never pass any kind of inspection. However even good welds will fail if they are subjected to stresses that are beyond what they can support due to lack of gussets or other support material incorporated in the design.

As Rich says “Some frame flex is normal as they cannot be rigid”. That is a very true statement and certainly applies to the Lippert frame.
When the sidewalls, front and rear of the RV along with the roof, are all tied together they combine to create the integrity of the RV, If (as I believe) the frame flex on these units is excessive, then abnormal stresses are applied to the sidewalls and other integral parts of the overall structure. Hence the wall separation and the excessive movement in the closet area and even in the area of the bedroom TV.

This indeed can be corrected, but would require a re-design of the frame. I am neither a professional welder nor an engineer, but in my opinion the support for the upper deck needs to extend further back on the main frame to spread the forces created by the weight on the hitch over a larger area. There needs to be additional cross members in the upper deck the same size or larger than what is currently being used.

You cannot eliminate all of the frame flex, unless you are sitting stationary, but you sure could reduce what occurs in the front end of these Montana’s. Keystone should recognize this and move in that direction because this is a long standing problem that needs to be dealt with.

I don’t think I am overstating anything here but we have done our part in buying the Montana brand, and have identified that there is a problem. It is now up to Keystone to do their part and deal with this before a disaster happens.

[richfaa]

I also know nothing about welding and would not know a good weld or a bad weld if I looked at it. I am also not a engineer of any kind. In other words I have no qualifications what so ever to comment on welds or frame engineering. I have taken many pictures of these frames at the factory on the line when they are naked frames at the first couple of assembly stations at the factory on our tours at the fall rally. I have shown the pictures to professional, certified welders here at home and they have all said that sure the frames could be heavier the welding could be better and they might have done it different but there was nothing wrong with what they saw. They also thought that a lot of the welds they saw were machine welds and not done by human hand. I just don't know. I think that this year at the rally we will tour the Lippert plant again and ask more questions and watch more carefully.

[Montana3800RE]

UPDATE...Contacted Keystone this morning, here we go again, they want the weight of the trailer on and off the TV, also taking it to a dealer, not the same one that did the quick fix before and they will be taking pictures etc. and sending them to Keystone. When calling the dealership the gentleman was very nice, understood my problem, agreed they use to light of material in the goose neck area, wow they usually don't stick there foot in there mouth that way to protect them selves and the manafacturer. I told him that I would like to see the gn material replaced or beefed up with heaver material so we will see what Keystone will do. If they plan on doing the same quick fix, IT WILL NOT WORK and it will happen again no doubt as I will fight to have something done differently.

Irlpguy, Carl and every one else that has had this problem and the ones that have not, keep a good eye out in your wardrobe cabinets comming apart, exterior molding moving or caulking seperated from side wall etc. As mentioned, I have 1 1/2" of upward movement on my king pin before the landing gear leaves the ground, and alot of creaking etc.

As Carl said, I would also love to get rid of the POS and move on, but I would take a big hit on what I paid, and I also would never find a floor plan like I have as Montana builds the best floor plans on the market.

Thanks to all for your support as we all have worked our A** off to have the finer things in life, and the Montana sure is not standing up for what they advertise, that's for sure!

[Desert RVer]

quote:Originally posted by Montana3800RE

UPDATE...Contacted Keystone this morning, here we go again, they want the weight of the trailer on and off the TV, also taking it to a dealer, not the same one that did the quick fix before and they will be taking pictures etc. and sending them to Keystone. When calling the dealership the gentleman was very nice, understood my problem, agreed they use to light of material in the goose neck area, wow they usually don't stick there foot in there mouth that way to protect them selves and the manafacturer. I told him that I would like to see the gn material replaced or beefed up with heaver material so we will see what Keystone will do. If they plan on doing the same quick fix, IT WILL NOT WORK and it will happen again no doubt as I will fight to have something done differently.

Irlpguy, Carl and every one else that has had this problem and the ones that have not, keep a good eye out in your wardrobe cabinets comming apart, exterior molding moving or caulking seperated from side wall etc. As mentioned, I have 1 1/2" of upward movement on my king pin before the landing gear leaves the ground, and alot of creaking etc.

As Carl said, I would also love to get rid of the POS and move on, but I would take a big hit on what I paid, and I also would never find a floor plan like I have as Montana builds the best floor plans on the market.

Thanks to all for your support as we all have worked our A** off to have the finer things in life, and the Montana sure is not standing up for what they advertise, that's for sure!

Totally understand your frustration. We have been there done that. Our experience has been so negative we will never ever buy another RV again.