If 50 amp = 12000 watts/which 2 gens = 12k watts?

[Mikendebbie]

I was reading the current thread titled “30 amp service” and I did not want to hijack the thread with my question. I have been trying to figure out what size generators hooked together in series (? correct term ?) to produce 50 amp service to run the RV. Somehow in reading several previous threads on the subject I missed the “12,000 watts” note.

That said - do I have to look for two “6000 amp” generators to run everything in the RV like shore power? I have an older Champion inverter that does not have the series connections like most of the newer models. From memory I think it is a 3500/2950 watt inverter. Even if I could hook it up to another champion inverter - 2950+2950 = 5900 watts (right?)...that’s nowhere close to 12,000. I need help figuring out the key to generator selection. Currently my ACs do not have soft starts.

[rames14]

If you do a search for 50 amp generators, you will find quite a few. There are a few things you need to consider. Unless you are in a remote area that you own, you won’t be able to run it at night. Many of the National park campgrounds are l8miting you to four hours of run time. If you camp in the mountains, there is a trade off. For every 1000 feet of elevation above 5,000 feet, you lose 10% of your generator output. We live at 7500 feet and camp up to almost 10,000 feet. Then most of the generators in this class are around 300 lbs and above and are not true sine wave. I’m sure you can find one, but at what price and weight? Which is why most of us are running Honda, Yamaha or other 1000 to 3000 watt units. We run two Honda’s in parallel and because of altitude do not run AC. With our new Super Solar, that will change. Here is a 50 amp generator link. https://generatorable.com/50-amp-generator/

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

....
That said - do I have to look for two “6000 amp” generators to run everything in the RV like shore power? I have an older Champion inverter that does not have the series connections like most of the newer models. ........

Actually 6,000 watts. And connected in parallel.

You would need two generators of at least 6,000 running watts each capable of being connected in parallel, or a 12,000 running watt generator to equal the 50 park service. And you would want an inverter generator for its "clean" power. But you are looking at a lot of weight and money.

You would probably not need a full 50 amps. Each air conditioner would only pull around 15 amps. Add in the microwave, water heater, and other items and you could probably get by with generators of around 4,000 running watts each and paralleled, or one in the 8,000 watt range. That would allow you to run most everything, maybe with a little conservation of power. But a little less expensive, and a little less weight.

[432bartman]

And if you run the Micro-air Easy Starts for your A/C units, that would cut the start up amps down 65-75%, which would allow for a single generator.

[Mikendebbie]

Thanks bartman - I think that is the solution I will pursue. Not looking for bigger louder gennies. The champion is heavy enough.

[RoadRunnerTR21]

I'm going to use Mike's thread to further this discussion. I've looked at several dual fuel generators. I read that the DuroMax XP12000EH has a disclaimer that says "The quite high THD (<12%) of the XP12000EH makes it unsuitable for powering sensitive electronic devices". Are the sensitive electronics the TV, computer, modem/router, etc? Also, will an EMS and/or surge protector mitigate this issue? I know a inverter generator is the way to go but I want dual fuel option with a large generator.

[DutchmenSport]

I've tried finding what the combined output is of my two Cummings Onan P4500i generators when run in parallel and could not find any information. But I do know, when I run both generators in parallel, I can run .... all at the same time:

Both air conditioners
The microwave
The electric fire place
The electric on the water heater
The residential refrigerator
Both televisions
and an electric skillet

House lights, water pump, furnace, all run on 12 volt battery, but the converter is still running, and the "inverter" for the refrigerator switches over, between AC and DC input.

The Onan P4500i runs quiet, even two of them at the same time. I can carry on a normal conversation standing right beside them while both are running without having to yell and shout above the noise. They do weigh over 100 pounds each, but do fit in the bed of my pick-up truck with the cover on, hiding them. They are wheels, have a telescoping handle to move them around easily and come equipped with a 30 amp RV socket. To run parallel, I needed to get the wire kit. It simply plugs in on each generator, and then I needed the adapter for the 50 amp RV plug. They are very fuel efficient (gasoline), battery start with a remote or push button.

However, they are not cheap. They are now over $1100 each, maybe even more than that now. But, they ARE worth it.

Anyway, in your quest for a solution, at least take a peak at these. Other than the initial price, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

The only thing that does not play well with these is my Progressive portable EMS. It throws a ground error. But with these generators, I'm not worried a bit about "dirty" electricity.

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by RoadRunnerTR21

I'm going to use Mike's thread to further this discussion. I've looked at several dual fuel generators. I read that the DuroMax XP12000EH has a disclaimer that says "The quite high THD (<12%) of the XP12000EH makes it unsuitable for powering sensitive electronic devices". Are the sensitive electronics the TV, computer, modem/router, etc? Also, will an EMS and/or surge protector mitigate this issue? I know a inverter generator is the way to go but I want dual fuel option with a large generator.

Even though I am an EE (retired) I didn't get into power systems much and can't answer your question directly. I don't think an EMS will protect from excessive THD. But here is some information that may help.


From https://weretherussos.com/rv-surge-protectors-ems/

"While surge protectors are designed to protect RVs from voltage spikes, electrical management systems are designed to protect the RV from voltage spikes and other electrical damage. Additional protection includes: low voltage, open ground, open neutral, reverse polarity, accidentally plugging into 240 volts."




From https://generatorbible.com/blog/what-is-thd/

5. Damage to Sensitive Electronic Equipment

Electronic equipment is, by nature, a non-linear load and thus, responsible for creation of harmonics, which have a negative impact on the power system. Vice versa, harmonics also adversely affect the electronic equipment.
IEEE Standard 519-2014 (opens in a new tab) advises on the permissible harmonic distortion limit for electronic equipment. As per the article, computers and allied equipment like programmable controllers typically require AC sources that have no more than a 5% harmonic voltage distortion factor, with the largest single harmonic being no more than 3% of the fundamental voltage.
Harmonics above the permissible limit can cause malfunctioning of the electronic equipment. A higher percentage of harmonic distortion may even burn sensitive components.
Another phenomenon caused by harmonics is voltage notching (opens in a new tab). Voltage notches can also cause malfunctioning of sensitive electronic equipment.


Harmonics in a Portable Inverter Generator

"To elaborate on the concept of clean power (as in sinusoidal, not to be confused with green energy), let us compare portable inverter generators and conventional generators in terms of the THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) produced.
The harmonic distortion in conventional generators is generally in the range of 9–10%. For some generators, it can be even higher than that (manufacturers will often say “under 25%”, as it also depends on the load). Due to such high distortion, these generators are not suitable for circuits which contain computers, laptops, TVs and other sensitive electronic equipment.
Contrary to this, a portable inverter generator’s distortion is in the 3–5% range, sometimes even lower. This range is well within the permissible limits of IEEE std 519-2014. Therefore, the electricity generated by portable inverter generators is safe (clean) for computers, laptops, TVs, etc."

[RoadRunnerTR21]

Thanks for both of your replies. I read that article from generatorbible.com after I made my initial post. It was very informative. I have learned that there are several dual fuel non-inverter generators that produce <5% THD. One of them is the Westinghouse 12000DF generator. My current thought process is as follows.


1) Install a 250 LP tank
2) Have an electrician wire up a manual transfer switch in the house garage that can run 50 amps to the RV garage. Also wire it so I can turn on some breakers in the house for refrigerator and freezer. May also include a few lights and sewer pump.



So when we have an extended power outage, I can fire the generator up to get the Montana set up for living. Yet preserve any perishables in the house.



How does that sound? Any gaping holes in my thought process?

[DutchmenSport]

Originally Posted by RoadRunnerTR21

... How does that sound? Any gaping holes in my thought process?

There's a popular expression from a well known movie that says, "If you build it, THEY will come!"

Well, Electricity is nothing but wires, and switches, and connections, and plugs, and sockets. "If you dream it, it CAN happen." Your plan does not sound unreasonable or outlandish. We have the technology to accomplish about anything if we want. The secret is contacting the right electrician that can take your ideas and turn them into reality. It's just that simple.... plus ... having the money to pay for it.

But anything is doable! Yes.

[Montana Man]

[QUOTE=DutchmenSport;1217305]I've tried finding what the combined output is of my two Cummings Onan P4500i generators when run in parallel and could not find any information. But I do know, when I run both generators in parallel, I can run .... all at the same time:

Both air conditioners
The microwave
The electric fire place
The electric on the water heater
The residential refrigerator
Both televisions
and an electric skillet

House lights, water pump, furnace, all run on 12 volt battery, but the converter is still running, and the "inverter" for the refrigerator switches over, between AC and DC input.

The Onan P4500i runs quiet, even two of them at the same time. I can carry on a normal conversation standing right beside them while both are running without having to yell and shout above the noise. They do weigh over 100 pounds each, but do fit in the bed of my pick-up truck with the cover on, hiding them. They are wheels, have a telescoping handle to move them around easily and come equipped with a 30 amp RV socket. To run parallel, I needed to get the wire kit. It simply plugs in on each generator, and then I needed the adapter for the 50 amp RV plug. They are very fuel efficient (gasoline), battery start with a remote or push button.

However, they are not cheap. They are now over $1100 each, maybe even more than that now. But, they ARE worth it.

Anyway, in your quest for a solution, at least take a peak at these. Other than the initial price, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

The only thing that does not play well with these is my Progressive portable EMS. It throws a ground error. But with these generators, I'm not worried a bit about "dirty" electricity.

Nice setup! Not cheap? You saved about $18000 over the latest solar option. Which by the way can be had for about $7000.

[Mikendebbie]

RoadRunner - sounds like you are prepping for another 100 yr event...well...maybe a 10 yr event. We had similar extended 3 day power outage Feb 2011, and I quit counting at 100 hrs power outage during Feb 2021. But thankfully our saviors in Austin are going to fix this power outage problem...so there is NOTHING to worry about!!

However - a tornado related extended outage is something to plan for, and you are in a hotter tornado alley than me - so I like your plan.

[RoadRunnerTR21]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

But thankfully our saviors in Austin are going to fix this power outage problem...so there is NOTHING to worry about!!

Which is one of the reasons I want to have a backup plan in place. While the winter outage we had in February was annoying, we dealt with that situation just fine. Like you said, I am more concerned about a tornado or bad storm damaging the infrastructure for a few days. When it gets hot outside and SWMBO doesn't have her air conditioning or we start losing food, there will be big problems.

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

...... But thankfully our saviors in Austin are going to fix this power outage problem...so there is NOTHING to worry about!!
.......

Yeah, nothing to worry about. That is why I am going to at least get a generator large enough to run a couple of 1500 watt heaters and maybe keep the TV and internet on so we can keep up with what is going on.

We live in a semi rural area and are accustomed to seeing occasional outages. But during the unusually cold spell with temps in the teens and single digits and high winds we had random power outages for random lengths of time for two days and power never on long enough to get the house warm Then it went off for 12 hours the night it dropped to -4 and inside temp dropped into the 40's. Sleeping on the floor in front of the fireplace and feeding logs every couple hours is too much for this old body.

[masterdrago]

We ran our 5r off a 6000 watt very old Champion generator (non-inverter) during the ~3 days of power outages in February. We did a lot of power management and thankfully did not need AC as it was 19, 9 & 4 degrees. We ran the water well, lamps to keep it and the water softener warm, a single Dish network Wally, 50" Best Buy TV, Chinas finest sound system, Samsung reefer, microwave, converter for 12vdc, the fireplace heater, one small electric heater when LP got low and a heated water hose. Nothing blew up or melted down while being run from that old generator. Only tripped one of the breakers of 4 on the generator one time. Had to go find LP refills once. Life was scary but okay. It could have been a lot worse as several of our neighbors had pipes burst, leak and damage lots of interior furnishings.