Lazy Days Billing Practices

[pbahlin]

I recently had an issue with my Moryde (extensive discussions elsewhere) that was ultimately repaired at Lazy Days in Seffner Florida. For those of you who don't know this place, it's enormous. They bill themselves as the world's largest RV dealer. With something like 300 repair bays I would have to agree. I may have discovered the secret to their growth. Read on....

When I took my rig in for an evaluation the Lazy Days estimate was 14 hours of labor. This was to straighten and reinforce the frame that had been distorted by the Moryde equalizer and install the Moryde X-factor center brace (only) along with replacement of both Moryde rubber equalizers.

Keystone only agreed to 5.5 hours of labor (from their reading of the flat rate manuals) and all the parts. At this point in the negotiating I got involved with Keystone and they indicated to me that they would go over 5.5 hours if Lazy Days would simply call them and discuss what it is that they were going to do. At this point in time they were obviously going into the flat rate manuals with differing approaches.

Ultimately, Lazy Days indicated to me that they had talked to Keystone and ironed everything out. Just bring in the rig and we'll get it fixed at no charge to you. I brought in the rig and the work was done in just 5 hours. I was released from the facility with no charges and went on my merry way.

That was three weeks ago. Today I got a call from Lazy Days telling me that I owed them for 9 hours of unpaid labor. I said the work was done in 5. I watched it happen. They said it doesn't matter. We charge what the flat rate manual says regardless of how long it takes.

Now I'm not a mechanic but I have slept at a few Holiday Inns and I've done a fair amount of construction in my life (from elevators to houses) and I never did believe this work should take 14 hours or even 10. My goal all along was to not pay for it myself.

I'm also no expert in flat rate manuals but I'm reasonably sure you can make them read anything you want if you supply enough garbage input to your calculations. And it seems to me if you estimate 14 hours and end up doing it in 5, your first inclination as an ethical company would be to question your estimate. I understand the need to use the manuals because sometimes your high and sometimes low and the manuals provide a way to rationalize the process. But if your estimate is off by nearly three times there's something fishy going on.

Lazy Days charges $120.00 per hour, a rate, I would think, that should reasonably cover overhead, labor, benefits, etc. In my case though, they're shooting for nearly $360.00 per hour. They've obviously been turned down by Keystone on the 14 hour attempted manufacturer rip off so they've turned their accountants onto the customer.

The laughable part is they have a guarded gate at Lazy Days to make sure nobody leaves without paying up. It's like Fort Knox, with fences and gates that go up and down, and guards. I got away with an invoice stamped paid and all the hourly charges for the Moryde fix say "Sales Price $0.00, Line Item $0.00".

I can't wait to show this invoice to a jury of my peers.

Oh yeah. Another thing. Don't go there to have work done on your rig unless you just hit the Power Ball.

[mail2us]

Paul, I was raised in Florida. Next to the GatorFarm LazyDays is another attraction!

[pbahlin]

It's a strange thing with them. On the surface they're really impressive. Underneath, they seem to be pretty sleazy. Kind of like a gator when you think about it......

[cdaniels]

Wow! We have been there with friends who had a warranty repair. We left thinking we wish they where closer to us for repairs. After reading you issue I would not touch them with a ten ft pole. Totally rediculous. I do not mind paying for services and time received but refuse to over pay labor when it was not used on my unit. Let us know how you make out. Would love to know the end result.

On the other hand if it took them 25 hrs would they have charged you 14??? I think not!

[bncinwv]

I would send them a copy of the receipt that shows a balance due of $0.00 and then tell them that you will be sending their request along with a copy of the bill to the Attorney General of that state. I would guess they will back down pretty quick.
Bingo

[CasaDelSol]

Our experience with them is pretty classic too. We bought our first Keystone 5ver from them...it was a Hornet. They were all over us while looking and purchasing. We were like their long lost cousins. Once the sale went thru and we needed repairs...forget it. We were treated like red-headed stepchildren. Never a call back...delays, delays, delays. Our friends bought their also (her son actually worked there on the million dollar rigs). When they decided to trade up they went to Suncoast RV instead of dealing with LazyDays again!!

[SlickWillie]

I pay my bills, but don't tell me there will be no charge and then bill me later. I will not pay.

Flat rate books tend to do just what the RV manufacturers do paying by piece work. They make a mechanic rush through his work, trying to make perhaps 20 hours pay in an 8 hour day. Goes with the old saying, "haste makes waste".

[nosticks]

Lazy Days is located about 10 miles from me.

I had been out of RVing for several years and was getting back into it, so I stopped there to browse. When you arrive, you are never left alone, rather ushered to a golf cart and assigned a sales consultant. Your first stop on your guided golf cart tour is to show you the magnificent service facility, there to take care of all of your needs. By then, you have been quizzed/grilled on what you are looking for, only to be herded to those units your sales consultant is certain you will buy right now today before leaving in spite of your declaration at the beginning that you have just begun to look at RV's.

When you have either exasparated him or been exasperated, your tour ends back at the sales office to view some of the brochures of the units you were permitted to enter. But first, on your way in through the door, is the lunch room, where if you buy from them you get free breakfasts anytime you are in for service or just stop by to say hi. Next on the program is the visit from the sales manager while the said brochures are being amassed, again in spite of your continuing declaration that you are just looking,. And, don't forget that valuable Thousand Trails membership. All of this and all you wanted to do is look at a few RV's.

After such a pleasurable experience like that, I drove 89 miles to SunCoast RV in Winter Garden a month or so later and bought the unit I have now. No sales pressure, excellent service, as I have been back for a few issues, and it's 180 miles round trip and if you leave it overnight, it's twice that. They are mindful as to what the trip back to them costs you in fuel and try to avoid you having to leave the unit.

I am happy with them, I was sure it wouldn't be so with LD. They are just too big and too sales oriented and I expect those overflowing service bays are there first to support any pre-buy problems as a priority more so than warranty or after warranty work.

[pbahlin]

The three week delay really makes me furious. It tells me they've spent these weeks trying to get 14 hours from Keystone and my extended service warranty plan (for which they had all the relevant info to make the claim). Of course they were turned down and now they're making a run on the customer as a last resort.

It's like they were working the food chain. Deepest pockets/highest knowledge first then on down to me.

I've sent Keystone a letter detailing this whole experience. I felt they needed to know they were being ripped by one of their 'representatives' who was now trying to rip their customer.

Here's the letter....

Hi Keystone:

My name is Paul Bahlin, owner of a Big Sky Vin 8A710151.

Recently I had a problem with my Moryde suspension which had an equalizer box (driver side) that was bent outward. I logged this problem with keystone and your recommendation was to get it to an authorized dealer for pics and evaluation. I took the rig to Lazy Days in Seffner Florida for evaluation. At that time they estimated the repair at 14 hours. They contacted Keystone and you only approved 5.5 hours as recommended by your flat rate manual.

There was some question at that time about whether or not you would cover more than 5.5 hours and the service center indicated that you would entertain more hours if Lazy Days would call and explain what they were trying to do. While that conversation was going on, Lazy Days told me that if you would not cover 14 hours they would do the work for me for just 10 hours. I don't feel that this is an ethical way to do business and thought you should know about this practice.

It's also an indication to me that they weren't using a flat rate manual for their estimates. Rather they were just trying to maximize Lazy Days revenue at your expense and if that didn't work they were prepared to skin me as well. Just a bit less.

As it turns out they did the actual repair in exactly 5 hours. An additional repair that I requested on two wheel lugs that would not hold torque was completed for .3 hours at a cost of $36.00. It appears they fixed one of these and charged me for both as I now have just one bad wheel lug.

When I left Lazy Days on the day of the repair, 4/21/2011 I paid for the wheel lug repair. The rest of the invoice was for $0.00 as the service adviser told me that Keystone was going to cover it. Today I received a call from Lazy Days saying that I now owe them for 9 hours of labor "based upon the flat rate".

1. Did Lazy Days ever contact you about going over 5.5 hours? They told me that they had talked to you.

2. Why does your flat rate come out to 5.5 hours while theirs comes to 14 hours for the same work? I thought the rate manuals read the same in Indiana as they do in Florida.

3. If a flat rate manual indicates 14 hours and some super hero tech gets it done in five, is it still legitimate to charge for 14 hours? Lazy Days is indicating to me that the charges are based solely on the flat rate manual regardless of the actual hours incurred in the repair.

I feel that Lazy Days has lied to me and lied to Keystone. I would appreciate any advice and or assistance you could provide in this matter. I am thoroughly pleased with the Keystone product and the Keystone Service Center but I also feel you should know about the shoddy business practices being practiced by your representatives in the field.


Regards,

Paul Bahlin

[Emmel]

Paul, I believe this is a great letter to send Trailer Life mag to let "all" the rvers know about your experience.
Be it known, Keystone stepped up to the plate for their obligation, your beef is with Lazy Days.
What I love about the whole situation is the $0 on the invoice! I'd like to be in that court room too!!!!!!
The real sad part of this is to find out that dealerships do do this all the time, just not as many hours as Lazy Days is trying to get or for that amount.
Good luck and keep us posted as to how you make out.

[pbahlin]

How do you know that this kind of thing isn't going on, behind your back, all the time? Manufacturers rely on the honesty of the dealers and the end customer has no way of knowing what communication is transpiring between dealer/manufacturer.

In my case, I discovered lots of miscommunication going on DURING the authorization process. Keystone at one point, told me they would pay for the entire bill provided LD just called them. I don't think they ever did call them.

Good idea on talking to Trailer Life. Is that the Good Sam problem resolution service?

[stiles watson]

In addition, this sounds like a prime case for the trouble shooters at Good Sam. I have seen some remarkable turn-a-rounds capitulations by dealers printed in their magazine. Some of them even when I thought the customer's claim was spurious, but public pressure won the day.

[Lee F.]

In my opinion flat rate manuals are mostly a rip off. I am aware of two automotive shops where the mechanics are encouraged to complete the work in the fastest time possible, and receive a percentage of the overpayment in their pay checks. This rewards quick, shoddy repairs. I will never do business with a flat rate shop unless I know exactly what I am paying for, think it's reasonable, and can watch the work being done.

[steves]

Send your documented complaint into Trailer Life RV Action Line. They many times resolve valid issues.

[Sky]

Paul - Good Sams publication is "Highways". I'll quote them - "If you have an issue to resolve...send an e-mail to actionline@goodsamclub.com, go to
www.goodsamclub.com/community and click on RVer Rights or mail a letter to Action Line, P.O.Box8545, Ventura, California 93002. Please include a detailed
explanation and copies of your receipts."
Hope that helps.

[Jay Bird]

Don't forget to contact the Attorney General and file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau in FL.

[pbahlin]

I've been out of communications since my last post (Grand Canyon) but upon regaining civilization this morning, I had a voice mail from Keystone saying the problem had been resolved (by them). While trying to reach them to find out what had been done. I got a call from Lazy Days offering an apology and stating that the whole thing had been a communication problem.

Keystone wouldn't tell me exactly what they had done but reading between the lines I would say they negotiated some more hours. I don't think this is the best solution since Lazy Days was not honest in their business dealings. My guess is that Keystone just wanted it over and didn't want to rock the boat on what is probably a pretty juicy sales channel.

I'll probably never know what went down between them but bottom line, from my perspective, Keystone stood up.

I won't be back to Lazy Days!

[adelmoll]

Lazy Days sells a ton of Keystone RV's... I'm sure that they both wanted to work things out. Keystone would not want to lose their business. Your's is just one of many horror stories we have heard about Lazy Days. Their is a name for places like them but I can't repeat it here on the MOC or I would be kicked off.

Helen

[Wayne and Carolyn Mathews]

Just got a shock of our own after getting the bill for some minor repairs on our rig at a local Montana dealer's place. Labor doubled since we were there last--jumped from $60 an hour to $120 an hour. Several times when going over the work order prior to leaving the rig, we mentioned things along the lines of "At $60 an hour, how many hours is this going to take . . .," getting, of course the standard, "Well, the book says . . ." Not once did anyone say, "Oh, by the way, our labor is now $120 an hour.

The labor charges are being reviewed as I write this, along with questions about some repairs that weren't finished or not done at all. Part of the problem with the bill is also the time Keystone allowed for replacement of our bad graphics and the time it actually took to do the job.

And the work not done after leaving the rig 2 weeks? Well, it's a bit difficult now that we're living in it to pull up stakes, drive 2 hours down the road, and leave our Montana a second time. It was at the dealer's place 2 full weeks for the work to be done before we picked it up and moved into it.

I thought Lazy Days might be the best place, outside of Goshen or Pendleton, to take a rig for repairs. Now that I've read the posts on this thread, perhaps I was wrong.
Carolyn

[pbahlin]

If you've got something really serious to get done and it's not a safety issue (so you can afford to delay) the absolute best way to get your rig right is to go to the annual rally, schmooze with the Keystone folks, then make an appointment at the service center and drop names of the schmoozees. When you do this you've cut out one of the parties in what is usually a three way kabuki dance. And there is no dealer that is going to do better work than the service center.

I'm convinced that Keystone, and probably every other manufacturer too, makes a conscious business decision to pay for expensive repairs on the back end (as a warranty repair) for a few rigs rather than pay for expensive construction on every rig they make on the front end (as a manufacturing cost). It's just a dirty little (not so) secret fact about an industry whose customer base consists of people with an extreme range of usage for their products. It's not pretty but it's the way it is.

We've got everything from full timers to weekend vacationers in these rigs and in my travels I'd have to say full timers are not very common. That's not to say full timers are any big deal but they are far more likely to have problems just because they use the product more and in a far wider range of conditions than the occasional user. So from the manufacturer's view of the world it's good business sense to shoot for a level of quality that satisfies 'most' customers, say 95% or so, and then take really good care of the customers, say 5% or so, who are busy debugging the manufacturing process. It's what Microsoft does too.

When one of these repair rips comes up you've got a dealer, who does not want to lose the Montana franchise, a manufacturer who doesn't want to lose a prominent retail outlet, and a customer who has already paid for the defective product. The customer is the weak sister in this dance. You've only got one weapon, daylight!

Get vocal. Let both sides know that you know their secret. Let them know you're on to them. The thing about people with secrets is that they want to keep them. Once they know that you know, and won't keep your mouth shut, they work it out. You win! You might even be better off at a dealer like Lazy Days, in spite of the hassle, because their volume is so massive that there is a bigger incentive to work it out than you would get with a little (Montana) dealer where there is little reason to take a big hit to the bottom line. For the big guys, your issue is most likely just pocket change to them anyway, so they're looking for a way to get this pesky mosquito across from them, out of their hair.