Slides stop,

[JohnG3]

I've searched and read the posts regarding the electrical/amp draw issues with the slides stopping and have a question: Our 2009 3485SA slides would go out one at a time starting with the bedroom, then the entertainment, then the couch/dinette. The bedroom slide would reach the end of it's travel before the entertainment slide started it's movement. That would come to the end of travel then the third slide would start it movement. Slide out switch on the whole time

The slides stopping issue began happening when the entertainment started going out when the bedroom was about half way out. The couch/dinette slide would go out at the same time to about 4 inches and stop. The entertainment slide would then stop about half way out. Then just as the bedroom slide reached the end, the couch/dinette slide would start moving again. The entertainment slide would get close to all the way out, then the couch/dinette slide would start moving out.

The circuit breaker would stop the works at various times during the process. Never seems to be in the same spot.

My question: Could there be something in the hydraulic system causing the overload? I'm thinking that if the slides will run in and out all the way one at a time when new, would a seal that is worn or leaking by in the diverter valve allow the fluid to try to push the extra weight of the additional slides cause the motor to overload?

[Tom S.]

It is very common for people to replace the 40 amp circuit breaker with 50 and even 80 amp breakers to fix this problem. I did it in my 2006. So far, the 2013 hasn't had any problems.

[Art-n-Marge]

I gave up questioning many things like this... For most owners, making sure the reservoir is filled with the correct ATF, making sure the batteries (fully charged) or the power source is good, making sure the rig is level and the stabilizers are down to prevent excessive movement, and replacing the autoresetting circuit breaker with dual 40 amp (minimum 80 amp rated circuit breakers), I've not had to worry about this anymore. I used to have the stutter problem and the last fix (higher rated autoresetting breakers) fixed it. Now I just don't need to worry about the order or movement of the slides. Let them go in or out and I'm happy.

They originally started in the order you described, but over the years, they are doing all kinds of patterns, but they work just fine eventually. Whatever the overload, the autoresetting breakers are supposed to take it. THAT's the problem, not the pump.

[WaltBennett]

I think there's two 'somethings' you've written about. I noticed earlier this year that when using my remote the slides would stop & then I could get them going again - but when using the inside switch, they'd go all the way in or out without stopping. This got worse & worse over time and I finally replaced the battery. Problem solved on that one and nothing stops now.

I winterized our Monty last week and put the slides in, but had to go back into a kitchen drawer. Figured I'd just run the bedroom and then kitchen out far enough to get into the drawer and that worked fine. When I tried pulling them back in, the bedroom only went part way and the kitchen not at all. Tried several times and just when I was about to loose it, I tried running them all out and then back in. Problem solved there too (and yes, the hydraulic fluid is up to where its supposed to be). Maybe someone else can tell us why this works this way?

[JohnG3]

The thing I'm trying to determine is the REAL cause of the slide outs overloading the fuse. Bandaiding the problem is not fixing it. Sure the higher amp fuse will stop the apparent problem but, the engineer who designed the system specified a 30 amp fuse for a reason. He/she/they didn't look on a shelf an see a 30 amp fuse and decided since that was all they had, that's what they'd use. How well did you fix the problem by doing something that MAY cause the motor to die a premature death and the expense of that repair will probably be greater than the short term cost of the higher amp fuse.

[Carl n Susan]

The REAL cause of the problem is the autoreset circuit breaker. 30 amp is too small. Newer rigs come with 40 and 50 amp CBs. Do a Search on autoreset and read the three pages of postings (with pictures). Pick other Search words like stutter, slides stopping, circuit breaker, and see what other postings are out there. This has been going on for years. Even Lippert documents the problem and recommends increasing the size of the circuit breaker. The same engineer who specified the 30 amp CB probably also spec'd the installation of Goodyear Marathon tires.

[DQDick]

quote:Originally posted by JohnG3

The thing I'm trying to determine is the REAL cause of the slide outs overloading the fuse. Bandaiding the problem is not fixing it. Sure the higher amp fuse will stop the apparent problem but, the engineer who designed the system specified a 30 amp fuse for a reason. He/she/they didn't look on a shelf an see a 30 amp fuse and decided since that was all they had, that's what they'd use. How well did you fix the problem by doing something that MAY cause the motor to die a premature death and the expense of that repair will probably be greater than the short term cost of the higher amp fuse.

What you say makes sense, except it's probably incorrect. When I had the problem I called Keystone Customer service and they had a dealer replace my 30amp fuse with an 80amp fuse under warranty. Apparently they felt they had made a mistake. When the fluid gets cold it will begin to cause that issue. Call Keystone, because they told me some older rigs weren't wired to accept that fix but mine was and it's a 2010 so your's may be the same.

[JohnG3]

I understand all the posts on the fuse issue. My thoughts deal with the fact that when the trailer was new, the slides went out one at a time. The entertainment slide did not begin moving until the bedroom slide was all the way out. The dinette slide did not start moving until the entertainment slide was all the way out. If the posts that describe the operation as the slides come out from lowest to highest weight, then if the entertainment slide starts coming out while the bedroom slide is still moving, that is adding that extra weight for the hydraulics to push, thus causing the motor to overcome more resistance, increasing the amp draw. If the dinette slide is trying to move with the bedroom and entertainment that is even more weight and more amp draw. Having said that, there are many posts chastising Keystone for taking short cuts. Could the circuit breaker fix be another shortcut fix? Meaning higher qiality or design of the seals in the hydraulic valve preventing leak by. Just my take on the issue.

[Art-n-Marge]

I think since Lippert concentrated on the fact that the circuit breakers needed a higher rating, they are hinting that the hydraulic motor can change its operation and should be allowed to like it has on many of our units and that the hydraulics will do this and it's NOT scientific or orderly and using higher rated circuit breakers help this to NOT be problematic. I think you are overthinking this, but it's normal. The circuit breaker fix was NOT a shortcut from Lippert, it was a strong recommendation and it's allowing us not to worry about the slideout operations because it help things work overall.

Believe me, I'm not trying to discount your thougts. I'm trying to pass on the conclusions drawn several years ago, that many of us came up with based on what Montana did (too low of ratings) and what Lippert did - admit they were too low and what must be done to fix this to allow the hydraulic pump to draw more current and not cause a failure (stuttering) no matter what the slideout order of movement - they didn't eliminate the rating, they just upped it. Now, if the breakers are changed and the new autoresetting breakers DO break it means we are beyond what the hydraulic pump should be doing (or even some other problem). If you change out the autoresetting breakers and things go awry, THEN worry and we'll worry with you. Until then, slideout operation is as expected, mine don't operate the same way 100% of the time and because they all go out or all go in without stutter, the conclusion is that all is good.

[Overlord]

On my '09, I have had two screws that had backed out or maybe pulled up by bouncing over rough highways. One screw under the bedroom slide, and one under the kitchen slide. The place where I'm talking about is the screws that attach the trim on the main floor that the slides glide on. I noticed the first one when I started to get a groove in the plastic sheet that covers the bottom of the bedroom slide, the other one I noticed that the polypropylene moisture barrier under the kitchen slide got a cut all the way through it. I jacked up the slides and cut the heads off of the screws that were sticking up. Probably not the best fix, but would have had to remove the slides to repair the right way. It has been over a year now with no more problems.

Also, check that there are no foreign objects under the slides or in the channel that the slide floor drops down into when they are all the way extended. Little things like AA batteries, dog toys, etc., can roll under the slide floors when they are are all in and you're travelling down the road.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by JohnG3

The thing I'm trying to determine is the REAL cause of the slide outs overloading the fuse. Bandaiding the problem is not fixing it. Sure the higher amp fuse will stop the apparent problem but, the engineer who designed the system specified a 30 amp fuse for a reason. He/she/they didn't look on a shelf an see a 30 amp fuse and decided since that was all they had, that's what they'd use. How well did you fix the problem by doing something that MAY cause the motor to die a premature death and the expense of that repair will probably be greater than the short term cost of the higher amp fuse.

First

What engineer?

Second

The first thing they taught us in electrical / electronic class was the fuse / auto reset breaker is there to protect the wire not the motor.

Remember the “engineer” that selected that breaker most probably doesn’t have electric in his / her house.

The breaker should be the sizes that would only trip in case of a “locked rotor” load which in my experience on a 30 amp motor would be about 50 amps.

The real reason you have a 30 amp breaker is because a 50 amp breaker cost more.

Phil P

[Tom S.]

When the trailer is new, everything is aligned and unloaded. After loading all our jun... er stuff into them and driving down our wonderful road system, things settle and get moved around. That's OK, because the hydraulic system is strong enough to overcome the problem, but the pump draws more amps than it did when everything was perfectly aligned. It is something that every owner experiences.

[psomers]

80 amp circuit breaker? That is like a 4 gauge wire.

[dieselguy]

I'm going to support Tom S ... and add a bit. The fiver structure settles in a bit after a few pulls down the road. Resistance of the slides change due to this. How you are set-up (blocks, rear stabilizers) on certain sites will also effect the loading of your frame as a whole. Our hydraulic slides will always work on the principal of least resistance as far as movement ... that's the way any open hydraulic system works. Every year about this time the MOC has increasing numbers of posts about intermittent slide operation. It's mostly weather related ... colder temps make the hyd fluid a bit thicker causing more amp draw from the pump. That's why tranny fluid is used instead of a higher viscosity oil. Colder temps also cause more resistance from the seals and what have you. I guaran-damn-tee your pump will intermittently pull more than 30 amps going into this time of year. If your circuit breaker was almost maxed out this past summer it's past maxed out this winter. As stated ... the factory fix is a higher amp or parallel circuit breakers for the fix ... scores of us have gone that route for years with safe and continued sucess.
JohnG3 ... unless your system is of a different design than mine, there are no "diverter" valves nor any directional valves. The slides go out according to resistance not really "weight". The pump motor runs one direction to deploy the slides .. it turns the opposite direction to retract them. All extend/retract hoses on your cylinders are connected to the pump via an open manifold it just has manual shutoff valves as a user convenience. Pump pressure is available to all cylinders at once ... resistance dictates where the flow occurs.

[JohnG3]

Carl, so you put up 15 strings of Christmas lights when the box says 10 is the limit. Does that mean the REAL reason the fuse blows is that the fuse is too small. 5 extra strings of lights has nothing to do with the problem? I don't buy your reasoning on that. I'm applying that same skepticisism to the slid out issue. The 30 amp was specified for a reason. And it worked well for a few years. Cheap fuses may be the reason stopping and a line of thinking I can buy. Heat is the enemy of the motor. Bigger fuses mean more motor heat and eventually a motor that no longer works. As for Phil's 50 amp fuses cost more, I don't buy that either. I do thinkk they cost more, just not enough to make or break a company like Keystone.

In the mean time I'll check on the cost of 30 and 50 amp fuses.

[dieselguy]

"You can lead a horse to water ... "

[psomers]

quote:Originally posted by psomers

80 amp circuit breaker? That is like a 4 gauge wire.

I didn't say that quite right. Eighty amps requires copper of 3 gauge or larger. The wire size appears to be about 6 gauge at most which is 55 amp wire. Keystone suggestion of larger circuit breaker than wire is sized for is quite a liability.

[8.1al]

First, make sure there are no mechanical problems, slides out of whack and dragging, bad gear pack underneath, etc. after that the 80 amp breaker has been the accepted fix for years and we haven't heard of a meltdown yet.

[richfaa]

If I recall correctly the service center put the 80amp breaker in our 06 3400.

[Phil P]

Psomers is quite correct.

The training received from electrical engineer down to the repairman that works on electrical circuits all states the fuse / circuit breaker is provided to protect the wire.

Bottom line is a 30 amp fuse / circuit breaker is too small for the circuit involved.

Our trailer came with a 20 amp inline fuse. That didn’t last thru the first weekend.

The motor in the hydraulic system in our trailer doesn’t reach its maximum electrical draw until all slides have reached their limit of travel and stop moving. At that point the hydraulic pressure reaches the maximum pressure and opens a pressure relief valve. As long as your slides are moving the pump motor is not drawing the maximum amperage.

A properly designed electrical circuit will not protect the motor against heat buildup but will protect the wiring from heat produce by exceeding the wire capacity.

I replaced my remote receiver because the wired coming out of the potted unit was too small to carry the load. I replace it with a fuse block and installed fuses in each of the circuits that went thru the remote unit with fuses that protected the wire that provided power to each electrical appliance. I haven’t failed a fuse or motor in the 3 years since.

The wire that supplies the power to the hydraulic motor on my trailer is #4 and is rated for 60 amp. A 60 amp slow blow fuse would be acceptable regardless of the load at the end of the wire.

As for cost difference, something as low as $1.00 (example not real cost) to upgrade from Incandescent light bulbs to Led’s becomes a substantial cost increase when you figure there are a large number of bulbs in the trailer.

Phil P