Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-30-2009, 11:55 AM   #21
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
Trailer Trash2, now that you are aware of air brakes you are now noticing the signs. I have been noticing them since I was a young adult and got my license and drove EVERYWHERE. My trucker relatives explained them too me about 30-25 years ago.

They said small towns hated when truckers waited until the last minute before slowing way down when entering their town and applied their jake brakes to do so. This was especially common in towns that were in the path of a long, high speed hiway. If you were able to avoid a ticket for driving too fast through town, they were gonna give you a ticket for waiting too long to abide by their speed limit. Whatever works, eh?

The jake brake law is especially enforced at night when the small sleepy town is trying to sleep. I don't know how loud an air brake has to be to warrant an infraction, but if you have ever heard a semi-truck jake brake in action, you'll know why the small towns have those laws. Orv put it lightly by only calling it "noise". I was in Canada in a small town motel, when I heard a jakebrake go off. They seem to be a lot louder when you are asleep in a quiet town.
 
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 12:06 PM   #22
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
Another thing - I am with Helmick. The Tow/Haul helps by controlling the transmission especially on downhills, but my rig still tries to go too fast if the hill is steep enough. If I start on a hill at 50mph and Tow/haul is engaged and I tap the brakes to slow it down and force a downshift, it is not unusual for me to be at 65mph forcing me to tap the brake some more. And I hate using brakes on the downhill.

I would like to have a brake that maintains a speed in addition to the tow/haul controlling the tranny, but I can't find one for my year/model Ford truck. Banks Engineering does not have one for the Ford, but they do have one for the GMC/Chevy Cummins later models. When I contacted Banks they said they would like to get one released but they are having trouble getting it working because of the Ford Engine Control Module and Tow/Haul mode on the 6.0L and 6.4L. I recall they had a brake control for the 7.3L ford trucks.

I would like to have one.
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 01:20 PM   #23
RickW
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Wylie
Posts: 532
M.O.C. #9139
The big issues with the use of the Jake Brake or Engine Brake is the noise if you do not have a muffler. If you are running a straight pipe and hit the exhaust break you could be looking at a ticket when you see one of these signs posted. If you have a muffler odds are they will not even know you are using the exhaust break and never give you a 2nd look. The same for the big trucks. My neighbor drive for Wal-Mart and all their trucks have mufflers. He has never had any problems.
RickW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 03:44 PM   #24
Trailer Trash 2
Montana Master
 
Trailer Trash 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Santa Fe Springs
Posts: 4,189
M.O.C. #639
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

Trailer Trash2, now that you are aware of air brakes you are now noticing the signs. I have been noticing them since I was a young adult and got my license and drove EVERYWHERE. My trucker relatives explained them too me about 30-25 years ago.
I dont see how they can stop a truck from using air brakes, because thats what stops them, it's air from the resivor to the actuator on the axel, to the cam for the shoes. a loss of air or low pressure will cause the brakes to lock up on any simi. air pressure will keep the acuuators pushed on so the brake shoes are off.
As for the Jake Brake on big rigs, I tend to agree with the post, and noise in the residendal neighborhood, small towns, along with sign placement.
As Steve stated I dont hardly hear my exhost when in Tow Haul, and the exost brake activated. I never have to touch my brakes I just paddle down to the next set of 2 gears combinations or I could apply th brakes a tad, or the trans will down shift automaticly, a great feature that Dodge and the turbo company desined.
__________________
Pulling a 2004, 2980 RL an oldie but goodie.
Tow vehicle is a 2009 RED RAM 3500 DRW.
Trailer Trash 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 04:29 PM   #25
HughM
Montana Master
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Weeki Wachee
Posts: 814
M.O.C. #7219
We must remember that there are two types of speed brakes, exhaust and jake brake. They are very different but have the same basic function and that is to slow the engine down. Exhaust brake is as simple as a flapper in the exhaust pipe and that worked great on several of my diesel pushers. That being said they are much quieter that a Jake brake on a 18 wheeler. Jake brake uses engines compression or lack of to slow the engine down.
Exhaust brakes are used on motor homes because they are quieter. They do require maintenance, just ask someone who didn't lubericate the throttle arm on the brake and see what they say about it freezing up in a certain position...
I wish I had the exhaust brake on my DuraMax and it not void the warranty.
Hugh
HughM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 07:08 AM   #26
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
The Cummins uses a slider on the shaft for the turbo. No flappers. It's a different idea but works well. I don't know if that has anything to do with it being so quiet.

Don, a Dodge diesel mechanic told me to use the exhaust brake periodically, even when not towing, so it doesn't get carbon on the shaft that causes the slider to not move well or at all. So, occasionally when we're running solo I'll turn the exhaust brake on for awhile. When I remember.
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 10:29 AM   #27
Trailer Trash 2
Montana Master
 
Trailer Trash 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Santa Fe Springs
Posts: 4,189
M.O.C. #639
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sreigle

The Cummins uses a slider on the shaft for the turbo. No flappers. It's a different idea but works well. I don't know if that has anything to do with it being so quiet.

Don, a Dodge diesel mechanic told me to use the exhaust brake periodically, even when not towing, so it doesn't get carbon on the shaft that causes the slider to not move well or at all. So, occasionally when we're running solo I'll turn the exhaust brake on for awhile. When I remember.
Steve thanks for the good tip, even more reason to use it huh.
Love that sound it makes. Burrrrrrrr.
Don
__________________
Pulling a 2004, 2980 RL an oldie but goodie.
Tow vehicle is a 2009 RED RAM 3500 DRW.
Trailer Trash 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 11:28 AM   #28
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
And a Jake Brake sounds like.... (say this as fast as you can)...

PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH-PUH!!!!

It's an attention getting sound during the day and a heart-stopper at night.
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 12:47 PM   #29
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
Yeah, I remember well spending an overnight in an rv park right next to a downhill offramp on I-5 in the Oregon mountains. There were semis exiting on that ramp all night long.

The Dodge exhaust brake just sounds like very mellow glasspacks, for those of us old enough to remember those.
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 02:26 PM   #30
mail2us
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,156
M.O.C. #6920
"I never use my truck brakes on any mountain grade, not even the Ridge Route in S. Ca" Helmick's quote.

Ron Helmick has it correct on the Bank Brake for his D/A. It does not use the truck brakes which in itself is a great savings/safety feature. Would this really void a warranty? Just not sure.

mail2us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2009, 05:04 PM   #31
gitrdun
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vista
Posts: 343
M.O.C. #4075
I am telling you now that the speed brake on the Duramax is better than an exhaust or pac brake. Just got home to Ca. pulling from Ky. and it worked beautiful. It works by closing the vanes on the turbo. It will not let the engine over rev. I love it.
gitrdun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2009, 06:01 PM   #32
Rondo
Site Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Omaha
Posts: 6,749
M.O.C. #7560
It was my understanding the the Banks unit WAS an exhaust brake system, am I mis-understanding the system?
Rondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2009, 08:25 PM   #33
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
Yes, Banks Engineering provides exhaust brakes. Jake brakes are compression brakes, but I believe NOW that the Jake brake people who are known for compression brakes provided the exhaust brake for the new Cummins provided to Dodge.

A braking system that occurs at the exhaust pipe or at the turbo is not a compression brake. Is this everyone's understanding? The comparison is using a flap to retard air flow to choke a vehicle to a stop, versus a compression valve systems that stops an engine that then slows down a vehicle.

Am I understanding this yet?
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 04:09 AM   #34
RickW
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Wylie
Posts: 532
M.O.C. #9139
A Jake break is built in to the head of the motor. A Jake break opens the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke to release the energy instead of using it push the piston down.

http://www.jakebrake.com/products/ho...rake-works.php

A PAC or exhaust break is a flapper on the exhaust typically post turbo. While effective it is not as effective as a true Jake brake. On a exhaust brake the valves still work the same it is just the exhaust pipe that flow is restricted on.

I do not know of any pick up trucks with a true Jake break either factory installed or after market.
RickW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 08:16 AM   #35
firetrucker
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Gardnerville
Posts: 749
M.O.C. #2165
First, let me give credit to all who have said all of this before me. Let's put this all together, though.

Whether a Jake brake, exhaust brake, or a speed brake, the braking is created by increasing the back pressure against the pistons, and the effect is enhanced by selection of a lower gear.

The Jake brake changes the timing of valves built into the cylinder to release the compressed air before it can release its energy back into the piston.

Exhaust brakes (which includes the speed brake) increase backpressure in the exhaust manifold and piston by blocking, to various degrees, the exhaust. The speed brake takes advantage of the ability of the variable geometry turbo to adjust the vane angle. It closes the vanes even more so that it becomes a very effective and efficient exhaust brake. Combine that with better control of the transmission and torque converter, and you've got a much better braking system.

Nonetheless, there is increased strain on the engine and components, both mechanical and heat related, and it's all controlled by a computer. Don't put all your trust in that one system.

Bob
firetrucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 09:49 AM   #36
gitrdun
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vista
Posts: 343
M.O.C. #4075
The new speed brake by Banks is not an exhaust brake. It works by closing the vanes in the turbo of the Duramax. Other manufactuers turbos do not work this way.
gitrdun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 02:51 PM   #37
firetrucker
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Gardnerville
Posts: 749
M.O.C. #2165
Quoting from Banks, "Only SpeedBrake captures control of the VGT, varying vane position to provide optimal engine backpressure."

It controls the vanes in the exhaust flow, which increases back pressure, which is an exhaust brake.

Bob
firetrucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 03:43 PM   #38
sreigle
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
Ford was first out with the variable geometry vanes in the turbo with the introduction of the 2003 6.0L diesel. GM added that feature a few years later. Dodge was last, adding it with the intro of the 6.7L in early 2007. I am not sure why Banks does not offer a similar exhaust brake design for the Ford. Perhaps it is because Ford says adding an exhaust brake will void the engine warranty. Or, at least, that's what they said when I had the 2003 and 2005 Fords.

I remember from my Fords and reading about how the tow/haul and VGT features work, when off throttle, the vanes in the turbo close to provide some backpressure to aid in slowing down. That seems to be the same as what the Banks system does for the GM. Or, if GM's tow/haul and VGT do the same as Ford's, what does the Banks do differently?
sreigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 04:01 PM   #39
firetrucker
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Gardnerville
Posts: 749
M.O.C. #2165
Steve, I see that Banks only offers it for the Duramax, but they do it by taking over control of the vanes, the same way Ford does it, it seems, not by putting in an exhaust brake flap. Could be Ford doesn't want anyone messing with the electronic controls, and maybe Dodge is the same way.

Bob
firetrucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 04:44 PM   #40
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
I started another topic to find members who have found a solution to late model Fords with 6.0L and 6.4L diesels. With help, I have found two companies via the internet that provide exhaust brakes for these Fords. One is called Diesel Power Products (about $1300) and the other is Pacbrake (about $1700).

But I am not having much success of MOC members that use either of these. Then there's the question of how they like them. I don't know how they were able to get around the intelligence of the turbo, engine and tranny modules, but they claim they did it. That's been Banks complaint, is that they can't figure it out yet. In the past, the Ford engines weren't as smart, so there were lots of after-market options.

I am only referring to Ford.
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Banks Speed Brake bheckie123 Tow Vehicles & Towing 13 01-20-2016 06:40 PM
Banks speed brake and six gun tuner 6.4 Ford montana2511 Trailers, Tow Vehicles & RV related items for Sale 0 01-13-2011 11:55 AM
Banks speed brake kenandjudy Tow Vehicles & Towing 20 12-08-2010 03:36 AM
2007-2008 Chevy/GMC 6.6L (LMM) Banks Speed Brake DHUNTER002 Trailers, Tow Vehicles & RV related items for Sale 0 09-02-2010 09:35 AM
Speed jsnip42 General Discussions about our Montanas 0 07-08-2003 02:17 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.