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10-09-2017, 08:55 PM
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#21
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 1,567
M.O.C. #20475
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mdmarmd its funny that the GFC reset in 5er is in the kitchen and in ares its in the bathroom just goes to show the wiring is so different in every 5er they just put things were they want to.I was just looking at the pick you sent of the back of the plug in that
is the end of the wire run for that circuit you need to find out witch plug feeds that one
and see if there is a problem comong out of it
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10-09-2017, 11:47 PM
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#22
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Established Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Jose
Posts: 25
M.O.C. #20369
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So Jimcol, how do you actually use the meter. It looks like its not very expensive at Lowes so if I know how to use it, it might be well worth getting one.
BuilderBob Yes, the only GFCI/Reset is in the kitchen island and all other sockets in my diagram are only "GFCI Protected"
So if the short is in the neutral, does that explain why there is 89v from hot to neutral. I would think it would be close to 0 if there was a break in the neutral line somewhere and if it was shorted to hot it should blow the reset or breaker and if its shorted to ground, I'd think there wouldnt be a 17v difference from neutral to ground. I just don't quite understan this stuff.
BuilderBob, do you think they would typically daisy chain the sockets or do you think there could actually be an junction box somewhere on the line that feeds the bathroom socket. This might make it impossible to remedy the situation if the take off to the socket is really inaccessable in the wall or ceiling somewhere.
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10-10-2017, 08:57 AM
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#23
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
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A clarification on terminology. A GFCI outlet has trip and reset buttons on it. A "GFCI protected outlet" is a standard outlet (no trip/reset) that is wired to the load side of a GFCI outlet. There can be multiple "GFCI protected outlets" wired to a single GFCI outlet. And a ground fault on any will trip the GFCI.
You can also have multiple GFCI outlets wired to a single circuit breaker. But those outlets are wired in parallel and operate independently as far as ground faults, I.e. a fault on one trips only that one.
The voltage readings make no sense to me. Have you checked the voltages on all other outlets? Is that the only one with the odd voltages? If so, I would pull that outlet out, disconnect the wires, and check the voltages wire to wire. And then check the voltages from each wire to the like pins of a known good outlet. Check the hot of the good outlet to the black wire of the flaky outlet. Should be zero volts. Check the neutral pin of the good outlet to the white wire of the flaky outlet. Should be zero volts. Likewise with ground. Anything other than zero volts raises questions.
All the above assumes you are comfortable troubleshooting live 120 vac circuits. I do it, but I would not advise anyone else to unless they really know what they are doing. The consequences could be fatal.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
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10-10-2017, 05:22 PM
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#24
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Established Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Jose
Posts: 25
M.O.C. #20369
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BB_TX Thanks. I think I'm getting closer to the problem. I was so afraid that I might not have access to the problem source but after I removed a panel in the storage compartment I gained access to the back of the outside and storage GFCI protected sockets that are most likely daisy chained to the bathroom. I didn't check the inside of the outside wall socket because I didn't want to break the silicon seal around the socket housing if I don't need to. It has two wires coming in to it.
But the storage compartment socket looks most suspicious. It has three lined coming into it. When I opened it I could see that the hot wire was already coming loose and the neutral one was barely on. These sockets have insulation cutting wedge type clips for the wires but they clearly are not deep enough to reliably hold three insulated wires because the wedge widens distally meaning the last wire will really not have much to hold it in. I can't believe they would use such an unreliable way to connect these since the vibration of a moving RV alone could loosen this up.
I wonder if this most superficial of the three wires goes to the bathroom. The contact point may have been so marginal that the hairdryer current may have been high enough to burn the contact out if it was creating enough resitance at the point. So that might explain why it became permanenty disrupted after that event.
I have guests today so I didn't test the voltages yet but I probably will tomorrow. I may turn the relay off and pull all three wires out and then check them for continuity with the bathroom socket to see if I can confirm which wire actually goes there. I can't visually trace where the wires go from the opening because there are too many obstructions. If nececessary I could open one more panel and possible crawl into the space enough to visually see which wire goes upstairs in this area.
I am encouraged that at least I have access to these interconnects so hopefully I can find the problem.
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10-11-2017, 05:30 AM
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#25
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 722
M.O.C. #1328
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I think you found the problem. Those connections look poor. I would get a regular box and outlet and replace this one.
__________________
Mike & Donna Ishler Ontario, NY KE2LU FN13
2017 3720RL TST S637's
2017 Dodge 3500 Laramie CTD 4x4 Auto
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10-11-2017, 10:04 AM
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#26
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 1,567
M.O.C. #20475
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mdmarmd; I think you found the problem with your bathroom plug in I would change it to
a real plug in with screws that you can tighten down your are correct in the fact that they
can come loose wile towing your rig. I already changed all the plugins are 5er the stuff is
all made in china and is as chip as it can get!
Bob & Carol
Tacoma WA
2017 352RL \ 2008 Dodge 3500 DRW chew cab 4x4 6.7L
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10-11-2017, 12:02 PM
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#27
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,133
M.O.C. #6433
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What a terrible way to make wire connections.
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10-11-2017, 06:23 PM
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#28
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 2,702
M.O.C. #7992
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[QUOTE=mdmarmd;1076254]So Jimcol, how do you actually use the meter. It looks like its not very expensive at Lowes so if I know how to use it, it might be well worth getting one.
mdmarmd, It's not a meter but a tone generator and a amplifier. Plug the toner into the defective outlet and follow the wiring through the walls and ceilings using the amplifier. with a couple of short jumpers with alligator clips on both ends and you can use the toner on raw cable, like your DC circuits.
__________________
2006 3000RK
2009 Ram 2500
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10-11-2017, 07:46 PM
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#29
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Established Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Roswell
Posts: 22
M.O.C. #15943
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they unscrew but are tight
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10-12-2017, 05:14 PM
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#30
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Established Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Jose
Posts: 25
M.O.C. #20369
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So I solved the problem today:
With a panel removed, the two lines to the outside socket and the three to the compartment socket were exposed. With the powere off, I removed the top set of three wires in the Compartment socket that were the most tenuously attached. I tested them for continuity with an extension cord that I ran to the bathroom socket. It verified that this was the faulty wire set. I had bought a regular outlet to replace this socket with traditional screw connectors. But I would need to cut a bigger whole in the panel to accomodate a normal outlet box to cover the back of the socket. So rather than going through the trouble, I thought I would first strip all nine wires of insulation and see if, using juse the bare wires, there would be enough room in the wedged connectors to hold the wires securely. I seemed to work fine and the hair dryer that started the whole problem now works fine in the bathroom socket. I think the poor contact may have raised the resistance enough to pop the reset and burn the contact free so it no longer was working.
Anyway I am glad this problem was solved without any expense other than time.
Thanks to everyone who contributed their ideas and advice to this thread.
Doug
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