Very unhappy with new AC system!

[jameswbarton]

I have gone over the Dometic installation specifications for my Penguin II and Blizzard NXT units and the supply register quantity is 1 short for meeting minimum specification for two AC units or 9 supply registers short for the maximum needed 14 sq inch free area supply registers. The actual ceiling duct size is within specification but in the lower end of the Dometic recommendations. I am awaiting a Dometic Engineer to comment on my actual installation. I sent them all my data with pictures and arrows etc. I cannot get Keystone to give me any HVAC Engineering Data. It is possible they do not have a resident HVAC Engineer? According to General RV they called Keystone and verified my installation was good. General RV also put in writing they measured supply air temperatures of 35 and 37 degrees which is also not possible in the daytime in Michigan my measurements were 50 and 63 degrees. So I am not sure whom to believe at this point but I suspect it will be Dometic it certainly is not General RV.

[jameswbarton]

I have delivered the unit to another dealer recommended and scheduled by Keystone customer service. This dealer after listening to what I did and what I find is still wrong refused to work on the AC even though I can see a duct separation in the ceiling and can show him airflow issues. This dealer also told me the RV was not designed to run both ac's at the same time so I bought what i cannot use. I have another dealer willing to fix it but he says Keystone will not pay him so he has to charge me to fixit.
The HC 375fl is the worst purchase mistake I have ever made and the company will not stand behind the product advertised for 4 season living.

The dealer warranty is worthless unless maybe you have lemon lawyer on payroll. My last recourse is to find someone in Keystone management that cares about customer satisfaction.

[kozzy]

WOW, well that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that I traded in my Grand Design for a Montana.....wonderful

[bigskyjimmy]

The Rv was not designed to run Both A/c's At the same time James??? that makes no Feak'in sense,Are you sure you heard him right ? Or Maybee he meant on 30 AMP, If they told me that I would Laugh my head off and tell them they have no right selling RV's if they Know that little about them...that is CRAZY TALK!

[1retired06]

Had to have meant both on 30A?!

[richfaa]

Where is tat dealer.I will E mail him that we have been running both A/C's in our Montana's for 10 years.

[kozzy]

I'm currently running both as I type this, on 50 AMP of corse

[PeteandJoan]

I am by no means anywhere close to being an authority in any area concerning these RVs, but when I leave a RV dealership I usually feel like a genius ! I thought a RV technician had to go to school to be "Certified". Maybe even I could pass that test . The dealers don't want to fix warranty work because they don't make as much money as they can from just a drive up customer out of warranty. It is and has always been about money. Who would'a thunk it? But in the mean time, those dealers are building a terrible reputation but are gambling that it will not catch up to them. Only time will tell.

[DQDick]

quote:Originally posted by jameswbarton

I have delivered the unit to another dealer recommended and scheduled by Keystone customer service. This dealer after listening to what I did and what I find is still wrong refused to work on the AC even though I can see a duct separation in the ceiling and can show him airflow issues. This dealer also told me the RV was not designed to run both ac's at the same time so I bought what i cannot use. I have another dealer willing to fix it but he says Keystone will not pay him so he has to charge me to fixit.
The HC 375fl is the worst purchase mistake I have ever made and the company will not stand behind the product advertised for 4 season living.

The dealer warranty is worthless unless maybe you have lemon lawyer on payroll. My last recourse is to find someone in Keystone management that cares about customer satisfaction.

Some of us that full time and travel around the country keep lists of Dealers who treated MOC members right and those that didn't. Could you please name this dealer? I don't ever want to go there by mistake.

[1retired06]

quote:Originally posted by DQDick

Some of us that full time and travel around the country keep lists of Dealers who treated MOC members right and those that didn't. Could you please name this dealer? I don't ever want to go there by mistake.

Same here.

[jameswbarton]

The selling dealer was General RV in Birch Run Michigan. Do not go there for any kind of service. The "You cannot run 2 AC's at once service writer was Tradwinds RV in Clio Michigan. The 3rd warranty service center that told me he could and would fix my Air conditioning if I would pay him to do the warranty work was Hamilton RV in Saginaw Mi. The service advisor that made the stupid statement that I refuted but he again told me I was wrong was told by a manager that he was wrong and a 50 amp coach could run two ac's. My point is do you want a service center that does not know crap about coaches and AC. I told him I could see collapsed duct area but He just did not want to work on it.

Late last night just before closing time, I got a call from Keystone and the gentleman did have knowledge of AC HVAC and must have read the 10 emails and call notes. I told him all the symptom again and he said it is either airflow issues of supply and return air mixing in the unit or ducting leakage. I told him I had explained that to Tradewinds but they would not look at it. He told me He would get the coach fixed even if he had to have the ceiling removed. So I will not be holding my breath, while trying to get a grey water leak, two bottom slide out cables/seals, one door, one water heater burner adjust, One window shade and one scratched window fixed. I have already fixed bad register installation, bad thermostat installation, they fixed the roof AC condensate going under the rear screw covers by applying a mountain of caulking.

[kench]

Wow Lots of upset ( in Canada we call it PO,D ) owners out there me included. I would suggest a couple of thousand maybe 5000-6000 of us owners take a little tour to Head Office, with our RV s of course if they are still able to be towed and advise every news agency we could contact to let them know why. Even taking our RV s for a caravan to local dealers should generate some local and international news. My issues are frustrating but not as disgusting as some I have seen on this website ( which is amazing by the way, the website that is)
Hopefully it will prevent other suckers falling for the
" Do the job right and make sure we deliver a quality product each and every time" which is a direct quote from Montana literature dated January 2016 probably a Canadian version. sales pitch. I am 500 miles ( live just north of Toronto Ontario) from their head office but would gladly take a few days and tour down and let them know that their current and future customers will not be taken advantage of any more. Anyone can contact me to arrange such a trip and publicize it as much as we can before hand. As said many times "money talks" and if we slow down their source of money... Well who knows.

[jameswbarton]

Well there is also a Class Action Suit. I was hoping there are not too many unhappy owners. I thought I had the worst Motorhome ever made and bought the Montana to get out of the fix it and repair it daily business. Dometic Engineering was supposed to contact me Friday to review if my installation met their specs (which it does not meet their written installation specs). I heard nothing Friday or Saturday or today. I suppose they will not want to take a position that the issue is Keystone. I will call them again and wait on hold a couple hours to see why the never called me.

[jameswbarton]

Well last Friday I was happy getting a call from a gentleman at Keystone Owner Customer Relations. He told me he would get the AC fixed. I told him the whole story which He was already aware of. He said He would call the Warranty Dealer who has the RV and get him to do the Airflow testing and Installation verification. Today I was surprised as the warranty dealer called and tol me the RV was done. When I asked him about the AC he told me they never looked at it and He did not get the call Keystone Promised. After a few more hours on the phone all I have is a general delivery email address for the Keystone Owner Relations Rep. Dometic is also ducking me telling me they are sending me emails and reviewing my case but I have received no emails from them either. And yes my email is working fine. I guess I have almost fulfilled Michigans Lemon Laws and may need an attorney. I certainly did not buy a four season advertised RV to roast our toes in.Anyone have contact info for Keystone Management?

[kozzy]

wow, this is just unreal james, I'm sorry to hear about sll these issues you are having. Today I was just talking with s friend , he has a Grand Design, which is what I had before my Montana, I loved it, and had great service from the dealer and the company. He, however, is having a terrible time. I guess the point is, and it sucks, is every company out there, for every person that is having good luck, there is one having bad luck.
This also answers your question to me in a different thread, why do I fix it , well, its just easier sometimes then to go through all this hassle, its not right by all means,
Good luck with everything, I really hope you are able to resolve all this, RV's are to enjoy and relax, not stress over .

[jameswbarton]

Kozzy, Sorry to put you on the spot.

I knew why you are fixing it yourself as I have spent weeks fixing little stuff on mine since 2 June when it is not in the Warranty shop. Unfortunately I have two major issues one AC cooling and the other a bad roof job. Before I bought the Montana HC375FL I did a lot of research for a few years and was going to buy a Grand Design or a Montana. Even in the period of shopping this summer I found no indication that Keystone has serious customer satisfaction issues. What I find for many customers is that their dealers are fixing small issues for free without Keystone. However many dealers are starting to refuse to take a coach for warranty work if they did not make the profit of the original sale. Also many dealers will not fix the issues for free if the issues are too costly for a dealer and/or Keystone will not approve the expensive repair cost. That is why General RV sneaked in the "As Is Condition" paperwork that I gave up my right to sue General RV for selling/repairing Keystone defects. I have found many very unhappy customers in the Indiana BBB but then Keystone must pay the BBB as even with over 200 very unsatisfied customers this year they have an A+ rating. Why because Keystone tells the BBB they are just whiners. When I read the Indiana BBB reports they are consistent with the treatment I am getting and a few other owners on this site and other sites are describing.

So it is good that most of Keystone products are made reasonable well without too many major defects. However if you are one of the unlucky hundreds or more that do get serious issues you will find Keystone not very supportive and will spend days and weeks going round in circles with Keystone. Keystone will not leave a paper trail or documentation, making only verbal statements to make you happy, but they almost never follow up. This Tuesday Keystone "Owner relations" told me for the second time, the first time was last Thursday, they would give "their recommended warranty repair" Keystone's authorization to investigate/test/and repair my AC issues. Tomorrow I will call the dealer again to see if He is finally getting communication from Keystone. Owner Relations also has my photographs on my roof AC condensation problem. It was not repaired by General RV and is eventually going to cause the rear panel to delaminate if it is left not repaired. On my AC it is not simple as the two AC units installation does not conform to Dometic Instalaton Specifications Documents. I am almost positive I have one badly leaking ceiling duct over the bath which is always cold and its ceiling way to cold. It also appears the rear unit has mixing of return and supply air in the rear ceiling.

So I have high hopes I have their attention and they will finally fix my issues this week or next even if they have to remove ceiling panels which the service advisor in the current center told me he did not know how to do on my Kitchen.

[Golfmedik]

Now one of the things that businesses fear more than anything is a 1 Star Google Review. They spend lots of money trying to get good reviews and repairing the damage done by a few negative ones. Just throwing that out there.

[jameswbarton]

Well now there are plenty google 1* reviews with descriptive comments already but their overall score is 3.5 as there are other 5* ratings without One bit of information not even the typical I love it stuff. They also have an A+ BBB rating as they have convinced the BBB that a few hundred unresolved complaints are without merit. Of course to the BBB when a company tells it the customer is unreasonable the business is right. I thank you for that google idea that will show on every google direction search. Great visibility. . I have now been a member of or joined enough RV sites to get an audience of a potential 50,000 folks and often each one will tell 10 more if they are sure a comment or story is true. I am also gathering research on the companies officers and management. If they do not fix my coach soon I will begin telling the Keystone Facts to as many as will listen realizing all it will do is cost them some sales but there are not enough of us to start a class action suit.

[WeBeFulltime]

Boy! This thread makes me so glad we have an "old" 2012 that has the loud 2 air conditioners that keep our Monty very comfortable even in 100 degree weather. And it's white too, and no I'm not a racist. I hope you all get this issue straightened out soon.

[jameswbarton]

I have one noisy Penguin and one very quiet Blizzard. both feeding two parallel ceiling ducts. At least the quiet one is in the rear bedroom so it is quiet and stays almost cold. The Penguin in the living room makes me turn the The volume on high to hear anything. I had hoped the dealer or Keystone would have called today but no. All I know is so far I have confirmed they have lost about $100,000 in sales due to folks I have talked with concerning my problems. Both went with Grand Design. I can fix my roof condensation issues for less than $100 but it is the principal of the thing that I should not have to do any backyard engineering to make up for a bad rear roof installation.