Decals failing on 2006 Montana

[The Oldguard]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by richfaa

quote:Originally posted by The Oldguard

They were on the side where it say's "Montana" just run you're hand over the unit and you can feel them.
I'm sure that they are on the front cap also, but need a ladder to check for sure.

Are you sure you ere looking at a Big Sky..The Big Sky does not have MONTANA on the side or front cap...It says BIG SKY.


You're right it is the mountain out-line & "Big Sky" sorry I'm having a bad case of CRS

[Clemson1881]

The painted on Big Sky logo will feel raised and like a graphic to the hand being ran over it. But it is paint.

[richfaa]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by The Oldguard

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Are you sure you ere looking at a Big Sky..The Big Sky does not have MONTANA on the side or front cap...It says BIG SKY.


You're right it is the mountain out-line & "Big Sky" sorry I'm having a bad case of CRS

You had me going there for awhile. I was about to cancel the order.

[Desert RVer]

Meanwhile back to Decals on the Montana's. How are we going to get Montana to support their product relative to decals?

[richfaa]

Don't think they can..Posted conversation we had with the service center a couple of weeks ago. The decals from 2006 back are in very short supply or are not made anymore. Call the service center to check the status on your year graphics.If they are in supply and you qualify for new ones they may replaced them.

If we expect keystone to special make them at a great cost I don't think that will happen with Keystone or any manufacturer. One might check around to see what the cost would be to have a set of graphics made by a graphics maker..or maybe a better set of graphics. We have..It is not cheap.

I do not know what we expect Keystone to do about replacing graphics that are not manufactured anymore. They have been pretty good anout replacing graphics that they have in stock..

[Desert RVer]

The cost of decals are insignificant compared to the overall cost of a Montan 5th wheel. I have no compassion for what it might cost for Montana to place an order for a reasonably large quantity of replacement graphics from Burlighton or any other supplier. The issa is Montan supplied decals that didn't meet any reasonable standard of useful life. Therefore they have to live up to their responsibilities even if it is costly. If the Lippert frames they used are not up to standard they need to belly up to the bar on that as well. Keystone/Montana cannot walk away from a problem just because it is expensive.

[richfaa]

I do not disagree with you as I would also like a new set of 06 Graphics for this Montana.However there is no supportive documentation that the OEM graphics did not meet reasonable standards except from unhappy owners on forums who had bad graphics. Same with Lipperts frames .There is just no documentation to support non standard or unsafe Frames except on forum post. As unhappy as we might be post on a forum will not be a cause for any manufacturer to spend large sums of $$ of products we think are defective.

Montana has sent partial new graphics for this 2006 3400 and we have requested a entire new set...

[Desert RVer]

There is enough supporting documentation here on this Forum and other Forums that The Decals that Montana provided are not adequate and the same is true relative to Lippert Frames. There has been more than adequate reports of decal and Lippert frame failures on this and RV.net that it cannot be denied unless you are an employee of or representing Keystone.

First you have stated that decals are no longer available for your 2006 5th wheel but now you say that you have received a partial set and have requested an entire new set. Something doesn't compute!

[5rvers]

I sent an e-mail yesterday to Christy Anglemyer asking her for graphics replacement for my 2005 3400RL. This was her response:

Unfortunately, 2005 graphics are no longer available. 2006 is the first year that we have, but we don't have all of them. You can check with your Montana dealer or any authorized Keystone dealer to view the graphics available. You would be responsible for purchasing the graphics and the labor to install them. The colors are different. You may want to check into having a local graphic company replicate them if you wish to keep the same colors. I apologize that I cannot be of further assistance.


Thank you,

Keystone RV

Christy Anglemyer
Retail Advisor

[Chip]

Question:

Will Keystone let you buy a different year graphics if your year is not available?


Some of mine are starting to shrink!

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

There is enough supporting documentation here on this Forum and other Forums that The Decals that Montana provided are not adequate and the same is true relative to Lippert Frames. There has been more than adequate reports of decal and Lippert frame failures on this and RV.net that it cannot be denied unless you are an employee of or representing Keystone.

First you have stated that decals are no longer available for your 2006 5th wheel but now you say that you have received a partial set and have requested an entire new set. Something doesn't compute!

You don't get it... Post on a forum by unhappy users is not the type of documantation that will change anything.Failures have to be examined and verified that the products was at fault..None of this has happened. It has been stated that SOME graphics are avalible and how to determine if they are.We got some partial graphics two years ago at the fall rally. We did request a set of Graphics and got the same response as above. I think we also stated that.

If you would like to start a effort to properly document that Keystone graphics are defective count me in.Check out NSTB and see how many Lippert frame failurs have been reported.

Yes we did ask if we could get or purchase later year graphics for our 2006 and the answer was yes. We kept trying for new 2006 graphics and that did not work.Have seen earlier year Montana's that did that.There can be a "shadow " issue.

[richfaa]

Will state once again.. We had a home base graphics company examine our graphics as well as a replacement graphic sent by Keystone. They said the graphic was of a quaity that should last 5 to 7 years with proper care. Burlington Graphics did and does have instructions of proper care.

proper care means one did not wax them, washed them with the proper products, etc.Also states that extremes of environment will affect their life.

My first step in Proving that the Vendor graphics are defective would be to have them examined and documented by a certified graphics expert. We did that.
Post from a forum would mean nothing as one could also find owners that had no problems.

I have my own opinions but they mean nothing unless I can prove them to be correct.

[D and M On The Road]

quote:Originally posted by D and M On The Road

This post is rather long but I think it's worth posting again. I've probably posted it about 3 times now since 2008. I'm not posting this to have a debate, I'm just posting to let newer MOCers read what I found out about our decals/graphics, even though most won't like what they read. I didn't like what I found out in my research (below) either.

Keep in mind, most of this is from 2008 when Burlington was the manufacturer/supplier of the Montana graphics.


We have a 2002 Montana that we bought in July of 2001. Unfortunately we have always had to store it at a storage facility which means one side sits in the sun every day. Plus we were always “weekend warriors” as we both worked full-time. Here’s our graphics story:

2004: We noticed that our graphics were just starting to look a little faded. No worries.

2006: Graphics are looking faded, some edges starting to peel and are cracking. Oh-oh. Called a few dealers. Obtained quotes of $800 to over $1000 for a new set, not including installation. Called Keystone. Keystone would not deal with us. Frustrated, we quit our hunt for graphics.

2008: Very long story shortened, I persisted with so many emails and phone calls to Keystone & Burlington that we were able to buy a whole new set of graphics direct from Burlington for $280.

Our graphics were in such bad shape, and there was so much discussion and so many opinions on the MOC about the Montana graphics that I started researching to find out more about graphics. I’m one of those people who want to know “why” and with the whole world at my fingertips (love the internet!), I will research hours and hours to find the answers and I will hunt down “experts” and make phone calls to them. Here is a synopsis of my 2008 research and phone calls to experts who deal with graphics:

Burlington Graphics is about a 29 year old company that specializes in screen, flexographic and high resolution digital printing. They are considered one of the top graphic companies in the USA. They have been the only vendor (rumor is another company is now the supplier for the Montana line) for all the graphics for the Montana line up to about 2010.

"Avery” (The leading name in labels & adhesive paper) supplies Burlington Graphics with the adhesive vinyl graphic paper. In 2008 it was a 2 mil cast paper and one of the best you can get. The thinner the better when it comes to the graphics industry. You don't want a thick edge on graphics. That just allows for water to collect & sit on the edge and that weakens the edging which allows for curling of the graphic. It will then also give the wind something to grab onto. As with anything else, whenever newer & better vinyls and adhesives are produced, Burlington will upgrade to the newer product. That is why some folks who get replacement graphics might notice a change in them.

Graphics have a street life of 5 to 7 years if they are properly cared for in the beginning.

It doesn’t matter what brand of RV you have. If our RVs live in areas that get hot sun, or prolonged exposure to the sun, are stored outside without a cover, are high-pressured washed or aren’t waxed several times a year, then they will have started to show fading, cracking and peeling much sooner than the expected street life. Same with cold, wind and rain. Any one of the above conditions will shorten the street life of the graphics. So basically, graphics are doomed and start to deteriorate the same day they are applied. No matter what you expect of your graphics, they can't, and won't last a lifetime. If they do outlast the experts opinions, just consider yourself lucky, but they will deteriorate at some point.

With proper care, we can only prolong the inevitable.

It’s impossible to keep our RVs out of the sun while traveling. But what we can do is try to get shaded campsites, store the RV under shelter or get a cover for it, hand wash and wax it more often. Washing and waxing is critical according to the experts I talked with. We should be doing it every couple of months, at least. Our cars and trucks don’t go too long in between exterior maintenance, neither should our RVs. People who apply graphics to their cars or trucks usually hand wash and wax those vehicles often and their graphics will usually last up to and probably beyond the street life.

If graphics are applied to the rig in temperatures below 55 degrees, then the graphics won't adhere as well, which can cause early peeling. So that makes me wonder about if the graphics are applied at the correct temperature inside the factory and then the unit goes outside too soon and sits? The graphics won't have had enough time to "bond" and will start the curling & peeling process early. It would be interesting to see the build dates of the rigs that have graphics problems before the 5 to 7 year street life of the graphics is up. But then again you have to account for if the RV has been washed & waxed every couple of months, the sun, wind & rain factor and where the RV is stored at. Too much to really figure out.


Five factors which typically determine the durability of vehicle graphics/decals:

•The quality of the mounting surface where the graphic/decal is to be applied.

•The quality of the materials used to produce the graphic/decal.

•The installation method and the expertise of the installer.

•The degree of exposure to the elements.

•The proper maintenance of the graphic/decal during its lifetime.


It’s really hard to get consistent answers from experts on even a simple question of “should we wax our graphics?” There are so many different types of materials used to make graphics, some are matte, some are glossy, some are high quality, some are not. (I researched 7 different graphics companies online and 5 say you can wax over any smooth sided RV decals or vinyl graphics). Emails back from graphics companies say they recommend waxing over graphics/decals.

My 2008 research certainly showed ME that we, the consumer, have a lot more responsibilities to maintaining those graphics (more than I ever thought) if we want them to last at least to the beginning of the end of their street life. In 2008 I also researched the locales of MOC member who were at that time mentioning their graphics were having problems: 3/California; 1/Colorado; 2/Georgia; 2/Maryland; 2/Michigan; 1/ Texas; 2/Ontario, Canada.

2011: I recently retired and am the driving force behind getting our old graphics off and the new ones on. I am currently finishing up removing our old graphics and we definitely waited too long to do it. They are so cracked on one side of the RV that they come off in 1/2" pieces even with the aid of a heat gun and scraper. It’s taken us countless hours to get where we are now in the removal process and we have destroyed our fingernails and burned our fingers in the process. The decals on the other side weren’t as cracked and we were able to take off pieces in anywhere from 6 to 12 feet long.

A potential problem that I haven’t even addressed yet with our new graphics is that they also have a “shelf life”. That could mean our new graphics that have been sitting for 3 years in our house could quite possibly be bad. I don’t even want to look at them until I am ready to install them and am keeping my burned fingers crossed until I pull the graphics out of the box.

The moral of our story is, as soon as you notice a problem with your graphics, jump on it and stick with it. "The squeaky wheel gets oiled". Don't get frustrated and drop the issue like we did. Wash and wax your RV as much as possible as each coat of wax helps protect those graphics.

I also checked quite a few car club message boards and “Mequires” car care products are thought of highly by vehicle collectors who are known to be obsessive/compulsive in the maintenance of their vehicles, many of which have graphics. The Gold Class Trim Detailer when used gently on decals is supposed to bring faded decals back to life. Check out those type of sites and form your own opinions on what maintenance you are comfortable with. A lot of people are also recommending "Formula 303".

There really isn’t a product out there that is made just for the maintenance & care of graphics. Anyone want to help me develop one? We’d make a fortune just off of Montana Owners.

If you apply new graphics/decals using the dry application method, you can wax immediately if you want. If you use the “wet” method of applying water on the surface of the RV, then you should wait a few days for the water to evaporate completely.

If you buy a new-to-you-but-used RV, you might want to have a professional detailer take a look at the graphics on it first to give you an idea of the remaining street life, then consult with the manufacturer to see how much it's going to cost to replace them.

RV covers are recommended but you have to be very careful with them as the type that is thrown over and tied around RVs can cause significant chafing damage to the exterior of your RV, particularly if it is parked in a windy area. Poorly ventilated covers promote mold growth which can also cause considerable damage. Never cover your RV with a tarp or non-breathable fabric. Moisture condensation can be extremely damaging. If you purchase an RV cover, spend the extra money for a good quality cover made with breathable fabric and get one sized to fit your RV to minimize the chafing.

I finally quit worrying about our graphics and started enjoying life more when I realized that they are doomed from the start. All I can do is what I can do.


2012: A friend of ours removed all the decals on his older Wildcat Trailer. Complete replacement decals weren't available for his year trailer so he bought what WildCat decals he could, a few Montana and a few of other manufacturer's decals. He now has a trailer with a custom, unique design of decals that looks very sharp. The issue of "ghosts" is there, but not too much and the ghosts seem to be fading.


My recommendations:
Life is short, start working on that bucket list if you haven't already.
Eat dessert first.
Attend all the MOC rallies that you can.

[richfaa]

Good research Doug. We have done much the same research but did not report it in such excellent detail. The facts hurt. Having seen how and where the Graphics are installed at the factory this is also my concern as they install them on the line under no special conditions.

"Doug said "If graphics are applied to the rig in temperatures below 55 degrees, then the graphics won't adhere as well, which can cause early peeling. So that makes me wonder about if the graphics are applied at the correct temperature inside the factory and then the unit goes outside too soon and sits? The graphics won't have had enough time to "bond" and will start the curling & peeling process early. It would be interesting to see the build dates of the rigs that have graphics problems before the 5 to 7 year street life of the graphics is up. But then again you have to account for if the RV has been washed & waxed every couple of months, the sun, wind & rain factor and where the RV is stored at. Too much to really figure out. "

My Build date was April 18th 2006 and the Graphics held up well for 5 years then started to peel and shrink.The worst side is the side that faces the florida winter sun.Others look nearly new..

[Desert RVer]

The build date on our is somewhat similar. However, we started having to replace decals in the 1st yesr that were fraying at the edges of the slides. Several of our decals have been replaced over time due to other repair requirements. One in the last month when repairing broken aluminum welds behind the front cap. The side panesl were working independently of th trim on the sides of the master bedroom. Those particular decals must have been avaiable to repair that problem. I guess we need for Montana to tell us what decals are still avaialble and which ones are not.

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by Desert RVer

The build date on our is somewhat similar. However, we started having to replace decals in the 1st yesr that were fraying at the edges of the slides. Several of our decals have been replaced over time due to other repair requirements. One in the last month when repairing broken aluminum welds behind the front cap. The side panesl were working independently of th trim on the sides of the master bedroom. Those particular decals must have been avaiable to repair that problem. I guess we need for Montana to tell us what decals are still avaialble and which ones are not.

All you need to do is call Keystone Customer service with your VIN # and thay will tell you what is available. We posted that information on this thread.

[Desert RVer]

Who was your certified graphics expert? I'd like to talk to them. Name and phone number. Thanks.

[richfaa]

"A professional graphic shop in Ohio looked at our graphics and examined a graphic that Keystone had sent me and said they were graphics that were intended to last 5 to 7 years with proper care. "

Did I say certified graphics expert?? They are in my Home town .I do not have their card with me in here in Florida. Doug
above got the same information from a independent source.Why not call Burington Graphics and ask them???

[Desert RVer]

This is a direct quote from your previous message:

"My first step in Proving that the Vendor graphics are defective would be to have them examined and documented by a certified graphics expert. We did that"

[Desert RVer]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

"A professional graphic shop in Ohio looked at our graphics and examined a graphic that Keystone had sent me and said they were graphics that were intended to last 5 to 7 years with proper care. "

Did I say certified graphics expert?? They are in my Home town .I do not have their card with me in here in Florida. Doug
above got the same information from a independent source.Why not call Burington Graphics and ask them???

Apparently your graphics started failing before they were 4 years old.