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Old 07-03-2008, 09:16 AM   #41
Dean A Van Peursem
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I'm going to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. We now have two years on our late 2006 3400RL and probably close to 10,000 road miles on it. We purchased a unit that supposedly was intended to be pulled behind a truck, on the road. Not a stick house, not a fabricated home, not a mobile home or Park model which are only intended to be moved from the dealer to a home site one time. We bought and paid dearly for a 5th wheel Recreational Vehicle. So it really gets my back up when I hear those who rationlize the problems they are having with their Montana's because they have abused their units by pulling them down the road. That is what we bought them for and that is what they were sold for and were supposed to be designed for. I just don't buy into that rationalization and think it is far too forgiving of the manufacturer. It also is rationlized as that is typical of all the RV's sold today. Well folks, that is the way it is going to be until we vote with our pocket books.

We have had more than our fair share of problems with our 3400RL and are currently going through a major one. Most of the ungodly amount of problems we have had to date, maybe all, have been due to just plain shoddy construction or basic poor design or both. Those are the facts with no rationlization. Many of the problems have been repaired under Warranty but not without numerous expensive trips to dealers on the West Coast and hours upon hours of wasted time and tension filled discussions. That isn't the way we expected it to be nor should it be. As long as we Montana owners are willing to rationlize this as: "that's the way it is in the RV industry" we have no one else to blame but ourselves. We have purchased our first and last Montana and probably our first and last RV. It has been an expensive lesson. The rewards do not adequately exceed the risk. So until we take the manufacturers to task nothing will ever get better. If "shoddy" is acceptable and rationlized then that is all we (others - we won't repeat our mistake) will ever get. We will try to keep our unit going as long as the expenses reamin within some reasonable bound, otherwise it will disposed of and written off as another one of those terrible and expensive learning experiences. An example: We have had to have every one of our slide cable carrier bands repaired since they all cracked and broke. This is an obvious design error. Has Montana or Lippert beelied up to the bar on this? Not at all. Why do we Montana owners accept this? Wake up folks!
 
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:55 AM   #42
richfaa
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Nice post Dean and I fully agree.. But no one is listening.
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:13 PM   #43
bsmeaton
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Why, if I was any younger - I would walk right up to Keystone and throw this Montana right through the front window!

But, I'm not young.....

Time I spend trying to change the industry is time away from the real things that count in life. Call me selfish, but I dont' want the Mission Tires or the Apollo oven back just to prove a point to Keystone.

After all, I don't know about you folks, but this thing was a lot less money than a BMW 745IL, so why should I expect Bavarian craftsmanship. I'm just happy that I can read about problems on the MOC and fix em before I ever leave port. To date, the majority of my time spent on the side of the road with my thumb out was because of my Ford, not the Montana.
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:28 PM   #44
billhoover
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bsmeaton

Why, if I was any younger - I would walk right up to Keystone and throw this Montana right through the front window!

But, I'm not young.....

Time I spend trying to change the industry is time away from the real things that count in life. Call me selfish, but I dont' want the Mission Tires or the Apollo oven back just to prove a point to Keystone.

After all, I don't know about you folks, but this thing was a lot less money than a BMW 745IL, so why should I expect Bavarian craftsmanship. I'm just happy that I can read about problems on the MOC and fix em before I ever leave port. To date, the majority of my time spent on the side of the road with my thumb out was because of my Ford, not the Montana.
Good points...I don't even have the Ford problem!!
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:54 PM   #45
bncinwv
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Bill,
I was thinking about saying that also but thought better since somehow it seemed to me like I would be picking on Brad again!!! Ha Ha!!
Bingo
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:53 PM   #46
Jim Jarvis
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I could not agree with Dean more.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:22 AM   #47
Dean A Van Peursem
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I do want to thank all of the MOC'ers here on the board. Many of the minor problems we have had with our unit I have been able to fix myself quite easily and quickly due to the tremendous knowledge and support from all of you. I'll never forget our first real outing after we had gone though a couple camping test stints right next to the original dealer. We dry camped for three days and "full service" camped for three days within 5 miles of the dealer immediately upon purchase. That was a tip from a MOC'er and was a tremendously helpful one. We had the 3400RL in for major repairs 3 of the 6 days. That in itself was disgusting and a very good indication of what we were going to face in the future. However, back to our first real camping trip. Upon setting up, the front jacks quit working entirely. Fortunately we were in a campground that had WiFi, that was part of our campground selection criteria. After checking every manual I could find that came with our unit, some were missing, and checking every possible fuse that might have something to do with this problem, without success, I immediately fired up the Lap Top and got connected to this board. Within 15 minutes I had an answer. Check the in-line 30 Amp fuse behind the battery in the front garage. I didn't know one even existed there and no Montana manual refers to it. It took awhile to find it but when I did and pried it open, sure enough that fuse had blown. Fortunately, I had purchased spare fuses and had them with us and even had the right one of the right rating, which is a bit of a miracle. That immediately fixed that problem and haven't had that problem occur again.

There have been repeated instances of this over and over where I have received similar kinds of advice, suggestions and help on this board. I don't know what we would have done without it. For this help I am, eternally grateful to all of you. Thanks again.

But.... all these problems we have gone through, and we have been through many, should not have happened to begin with and the documentation and owners manuals provided with our 3400RL can best be described as a "JOKE". A disgusting insult. This was a near $50,000 purchase. I've received better, more complete, better organized manuals on a $200 piece of Electronics gear. The only reason this ugly situation exists is because we Montana Owners accept it. We get what we permit.

And I would like to point out that we Montana owners are paying for this poor quality twice. Keystone has to price these units to make a profit or they won't stay in business. So they have to increase the price to cover the extensive warranty costs they experience. Then we pay for all the costs associated with getting the unit back to the dealer so they fix them under warranty. I've fixed many of the problems myself because it was less expensive to do so rather than hauling the unit to a dealer. But even in those cases expenses were involved. So we have paid twice for poor quality that supposedly is to be fixed for free under warranty.

I sent a career in industry where it was very obvious that building a quality product up front, and in some cases at a higher cost, was less expensive than having to fix it later. Not including the reputation deterioration cost that goes along with producing and selling a poor quality product which is the ultimate reason which will destroy a company and their products. Building a product right the first time is the lowest possible cost product.

Maybe the current economic downturn will wake up the RV consumers a bit and they will demand more from the manufacturers. Unfortunately, I don't hold out much hope for that. We now live in a throw away society and accept shoddy products because we don't demand quality any more. OH well, $hit happens. Right? Maybe we need to just buy a few more Carbon Credits and the whole thing will go away.

Rant OFF!
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:36 AM   #48
billhoover
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As a general comment, it seems most of our problems are not with Keystone, but the individual components...A/C, heater, slide system, refrig, Apollo, frame, tires, holding tanks, etc. Keystone does not make any of those items, just puts them all together.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:45 AM   #49
richfaa
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That sounds familiar Dean. I remember the dinner we and our spouses had in Az a couple of years ago .Dean and I have similar backrounds in quality control and we had a great discussion. We understand the value of a quality product and its effect on the bottom line. We understand that we the consumer allow the Rv manufacturer to build a shoddy product and we do not understand why we do that for a RV when we do not do it for just about anything else. We would not purchase a Ford, Chevy, Dodge built to the same quality standards as our Rv's, and they would not build one that way. Oh well...If we do not recognize and accept that there is a problem....then there is no problem
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:56 AM   #50
SlickWillie
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by billhoover

As a general comment, it seems most of our problems are not with Keystone, but the individual components...A/C, heater, slide system, refrig, Apollo, frame, tires, holding tanks, etc. Keystone does not make any of those items, just puts them all together.
Who are you gonna hold responsible when one of the components built by someone else on that Chevy fails? Surely you wouldn't excuse GM if they put a Chinese POS tranny behind that Duramax? Why not hold Keystone to the same standard?
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Old 07-04-2008, 09:57 AM   #51
MacDR50
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Why am I getting a sinking feeling about my $60,000 purchase? In five years of ownership of my MH (Triple "E")I had only one problem with the igniter on the stove and one with the rear bedroom drawer locks. In one month of owning my Montana I have fixed several minor things myself with respect to finish and fit and have a problem with one hydraulic hose. This doesn't include PDI items my dealer fixed promptly. I expect a few more problems to surface but not to have to spend every day worried what will go next. The non-safety related issues aside, wheel losses, frame failures, spring hanger failures etc. are the things that scare me most. This forum has told me what to look for and how to respond. To all I am grateful. The faith people have put in Keystone makes me feel better although I still will not be not lulled into a sense of trust until they explain why my GVWR dropped over 1000# from the advertised level and why I have 6000# axles. The jury still is out over this let down. When I get the chance I am going to make a spreadsheet with all the component warranties listed along with their conditions. It seems it will come in handy.
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:39 PM   #52
richfaa
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"Who are you gonna hold responsible when one of the components built by someone else on that Chevy fails? Surely you wouldn't excuse GM if they put a Chinese POS tranny behind that Duramax? Why not hold Keystone to the same standard?"

Do not tell me things I do not want to hear....
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Old 07-04-2008, 02:01 PM   #53
bncinwv
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I am so glad that I purchased an extended service plan (extended warranty) or whatever we want to call it. We will see if it was worth it over the next five and a half years that it still has to ease our repair pains. We purchased it before the manufacturers warranty ran out. Although some avidly do not agree, I am glad I have it to fall back on. It already paid for the labor to repair the slide problem. The minor problems I can fix, the major ones hopefully now I don't have to worry about.
Bingo
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Bingo and Cathy - Our adventures begin in the hills of WV. We are blessed by our 2014 3850FL Big Sky (previous 2011 3750FL and 2007 3400RL) that we pull with a 2007 Chevy Silverado Classic DRW CC dually.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:07 AM   #54
richfaa
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Ditto on the extended Warranty(service contract) It does take some research to understand exactly what they do and which are the best ones. The question we have to ask ourselves is considering what we know about the quality of the vendors provided items and the workmanship in the construction of thse things that we will not have a major failure during ownership. We purchased the 3400 in May of 06 and the extended warranty about 9 months later and we have recouped 50% of the cost on our black tank failure this year..What are the probabilities of 5 more years of no major failures???
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Old 07-05-2008, 04:08 AM   #55
SlickWillie
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I have to agree on the extended warranty purchase. Although we have never used it, it gives us the peace of mind knowing it is there. We have had black tank issues in the past, taken care of by warranty, but after an inspection of the tank the other day, I could see more trouble in the future. Dang, that is thin material those tanks are made of. I seldom brag on our dealer, but at least he knew enough about these rigs to recommend the extended service plan (with a very low deductable).
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Old 07-05-2008, 04:58 AM   #56
bsmeaton
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This thread is actually getting funny!

First there are those that complain about the poor quality and how we need to push back on the industry, then there are those that are willing to spend thousands of more dollars for an independent warranty to overcome the poor quality. I'm not sure anybody else sees something wrong with this picture, but I am definitely in the wrong business!

I think I'll shut off this thread and go enjoy my broken down jalopy with no warranty, after I grab my fishing rod and a few barley pops. Life is definitely too short.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:50 AM   #57
bncinwv
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Brad,
This is one time that I have to respectively disagree. If we have a Montana in our possession, then we have to accept the fact that it is what it is. We then have two choices, we can fight Keystone-Montana and hope that they come to our rescue, or we can take matters into our own hands, which is what I chose to do. There is no way that any manufacturer can insure that their products are going to last or else we would have lifetime warranties. Common sense tells me that that is not going to happen!! Therefore, in the realities of what we are facing with these rigs, I have elected to buffer myself (and my wallet) to the extent that I can by our purchase of an extended service plan. This does not mean that I recommend it for all others, but rather that it is a choice that can and should be considered. By the way, my plan was around $1400 with $0 deductible for six additional years coverage. This is less than $250 a year for what I deem to be imminent failure insurance, so no matter whose ultimate responsibility it is, I am covered!!
Bingo
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:23 AM   #58
richfaa
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I am with Bingo.. We can demand better quality from the RV industry. One way to do that is to take EVERY warranty issue to a dealer and get the manufacturer where they will feel it..the pocketbook..but we do not do that as we all admit...we fix things ourselves which I am sure the Rv manufacturers hope for. In the meantime there is a need to protect ourselves from high $ failures which some of us accept have a high probability of occuring..understanding that any change to improve quality may never happen. For us 1014.00 , 50.00 ded for 7 years (which is actually 6 years on some things and 5 years om others. Was worth the investment of which we have received 790.00 less 50.00 ded back.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:53 AM   #59
bsmeaton
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Think about it this way -

I'm going to sell you inferior junk, be it a camera, an RV, even tires. To ensure you don't take it out on me when the product fails, I've also partnered with a warranty company that is going to take care of all the problems you may have for the next five years - at additional cost of course. By the way, I make profit on both!

As a manufacturer, I have absolutely no reason to improve quality. I can continue to build junk, the warranty companies continue to remove and replace broken junk with the same junk, and we all make fat and happy profits.

The only one not seeing the whole picture here is the customer. We are called grapes - tough outer skin but really thin and completely mushy on the inside. We are driven by our enthusiasm for toys. They are driven by profit, and rightfully so. It is the American way after all.

The only one getting aggravated by insisting on warranty repair - is you.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:35 AM   #60
SlickWillie
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bsmeaton

Think about it this way -

I'm going to sell you inferior junk, be it a camera, an RV, even tires. To ensure you don't take it out on me when the product fails, I've also partnered with a warranty company that is going to take care of all the problems you may have for the next five years - at additional cost of course. By the way, I make profit on both!

As a manufacturer, I have absolutely no reason to improve quality. I can continue to build junk, the warranty companies continue to remove and replace broken junk with the same junk, and we all make fat and happy profits.

The only one not seeing the whole picture here is the customer. We are called grapes - tough outer skin but really thin and completely mushy on the inside. We are driven by our enthusiasm for toys. They are driven by profit, and rightfully so. It is the American way after all.

The only one getting aggravated by insisting on warranty repair - is you.
So you're saying you didn't buy the extended service plan?

I think many of us were surprised at the issues with these units. I for one was. I can assure you if I ever buy another unit, I'll go over it with a fine tooth comb. I definitely won't be on a forum complaining about the poor quality of a second or third Keystone product. From what I've seen on my unit and on this forum, I am glad I have the extended warranty. JMHO
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