Electrical Problems

[Bill and Lisa]

Was Camping this weekend at First Landing State Park in Virginia Beach with members of several local FCRV chapters. Just as we were gettting ready to head over to the maintainance shack Saturday Morning to start assembling picnic tables (we are the only group to build the picnic tables for the part for the last 18 years) we heard a sound that can best be described as the sizzle you get when something wet lands on a hot skillet. As Lisa walked up into the bedroom to try and find the source smoke began to pour out of the bedroom TV cabinet. The TV had been off but was plugged in. The smoke continued to issue until I could get into the closet and unplug the TV. We still had AC power inside the unit. Went out to the CG box and the plug was warm so unpluged from CG power. Then notified the others in our group and along the loop to check thier units.

Park ranger checked out the power at the post and it was fine and no other units along the line had problems. going back inside the unit the Main 50A breakers were tripped, the breaker for the hot water heater and a breaker marked "CONV". could reset all breakers except the "Conv" one. When that was reset it immediately tripped the unit main breakers and the 50A on the CG post.

Wasn't sure if "CONV" meant converter or Convection Microwave. Checking the micro wave it was dead. unpluged that. Other items fried included a surge protected power strip (light still light up but no power on any of the outlets - thought we lost the coffee pot for a few minutes until we figured that one out. Also lost the DC power supply for an alarm clock.

Sunday was able to figure out what the "CONV" really was when I noticed that my battery was only readying 'G' instead of 'C'. I was not charging the battery from CG power so "CONV" meant Converter. Verified by removing panel around microwave again and plugging a hair dryer into the socket for the microwave - circuit was live so Microwave was officially toasted as well.

I put in a call to Keystone customer service this morning but don't expect to hear from them until tomorrow. We dropped the unit at a local Keystone dealer and he will look at the unit first thing on Tuesday (they are closed Sunday and Monday). Any insights from my more experienced MOC buddies on:

1. What to expect the company response to be
2. What happened to cause the events. I am concerned safety wise that none of the breakers in the unit or the CG post tripped and not sure if the TV would have progressed to catching fire if we hadn't been there when it happened.
3. Best way to protect from this type of event in the future.

Thanks,
Bill

[David and Jo-Anna]

Bill--I'll be watching for replies from the more experienced folk to see what they think caused your problem. I suspect that some will argue in favor of one of the big surge protectors for the whole rig as a way of protecting against a problem of this nature in the future--even if they aren't certain what caused it. Spookly to think that that much damage could occur without a major problem affecting the whole campground.

By the way, thanks for confirming that "conv" on the fuse panel refers to the converter. I was tracing circuits in my new Big Sky and was wondering what the "conv" label was referring to since I couldn't find anything that wasn't working when I shut off that circuit breaker during my testing.

[Ozz]

See post on 'Slick new product'

[ols1932]

I don't think any kind of surge protector would have worked on this problem since it seems to be an "in house" failure of the bedroom TV. Surge protectors of the type that have been so clearly discussed on this forum are for power coming into the rig.

Orv

[bsmeaton]

Bill and Lisa,

So sorry to hear of your problem! (I hate smoke filled rooms).

Please keep us posted. Just doesn't seem like a TV could cause that many problems across the unit, but anything is possible. The Converter is throwing me off some. Of course the Apollo died at the first sign of trouble. It probably self destructed on it's own when it smelled smoke .

First thoughts are a problem with the AC romex feeding the TV that shorted in the wall.

[richfaa]

Hummmm... That sounds familiar..the breaker marked CONV ..is for the converter. from your description the converter is not working..maybe fried..In our case the charge wire from the converter shorted to the frame..in the 3400 the charge wire is the black wire attached to one of the fuse blocks to the rear of the batteries. Check it for melting...

[Bill and Lisa]

Thanks Rich, I will look when I swing back by the dealer.

Orv and BSMEATON, I don't quite believe a TV could cause all this either, I think it was a symptom. One of the things that I am wondering but don't remember enough about trons to be confident of my answer is: Could a fault or failure in the converter been the instigator? Could this have sent a surge through the unit wiring downstream of the Surge Guard? I can kind of see all the internal damage being caused by that but would it have burned out the Surge Guard? Why didn't any of the breakers trip while the surge guard was in line but do so as soon as the surge guard was out of the circuit?

I am curious and fearful, I am a little worried about leaving the unit plugged in on AC if I can't explain what happened? How do I know it will not happen again? I KNOW it shouldn't but something happened.

Bill

[richfaa]

Bill..The charge wire is a thick black wire connected to the far right terminal of the far right breaker fuse(the ones under the red covers). That charge line puts out a bunch of amps.Mine melted everything in the7 way connector and was working back toward the camper when I cut the power.

[Ozz]

Bill, have you found out anything?

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by Bill and Lisa

Could a fault or failure in the converter been the instigator? Could this have sent a surge through the unit wiring downstream of the Surge Guard? I can kind of see all the internal damage being caused by that but would it have burned out the Surge Guard? Why didn't any of the breakers trip while the surge guard was in line but do so as soon as the surge guard was out of the circuit?

I am curious and fearful, I am a little worried about leaving the unit plugged in on AC if I can't explain what happened? How do I know it will not happen again? I KNOW it shouldn't but something happened.

Bill

Bill,
As I stated previously, it had to be inside the rig somewhere. If it was a surge from outside, the Surge Guard would have protected. It could be in the converter, but it's almost impossible to troubleshoot without seeing the problem. All we can do is make suggestions. A technician has to be on site to look at it.

I wouldn't be fearful of leaving my rig plugged in to AC because I have it protected. I'm not saying something couldn't or wouldn't go wrong inside, but the same thing happens in a stick house. You can go away from a stick house and have an electric hot water heater short and cause a lot of damage--it happened to us in our stick house.

Orv

[CRUZIN 2]

Bill

I agree with Orv & Brad, I had a switch get hot and turn brown so I replaced it and the same thing happened to the second switch. I found out it was a "bad connection", no more problems.

[Ozz]

It is very hard for me to troubleshoot anything over the Internet, if you don't measure voltages, amperage's and actually test for yourself, you are getting much information that may or may not be the information a person needs to fix something.
When a customer calls with broken or not working equipment and gives symptoms, their explanation is influenced by their experiences, other peoples input, and may be giving you data that is completely off base.
So you really just are guessing. I agree with most of Orv's first paragraph, but I am not 100% positive it is solely inside the rig.
It is interesting.
Ozz

[Bill and Lisa]

Well finally got through to customer service and they opened a file. They told me 99.9% of the time the problem was in the campground supply but they would wait and see what the dealer finds. In the meantime they suggested I call my insurance agent. Wasn't sure if it would be under my vehicle coverage or homeowners but looks like it will be under my vehicle coverage. Of course the insurance company doesn't want anything "fixed" until they get an adjuster to look at it. At this point my best guess is they will do the estimate and get the parts on order. We will then pick up the unit and camp with our Good Sam's group and then take the unit back to the dealer when the parts come in. I should be able to get through the weekend on my 6V batteries alone. I am able to charge the battery via the 7 pin from the truck.
I didn't hear anything from the dealer today and had to travel out of town. I didn't get a chance to call again until after they had closed for the day so I will try and get an update tomorrow.

Bill

[ronnilu]

Bill - sounds like a familiar scenario to us. We had an '05 2950RK, got smoke billowing out around the converter at a campground on one occasion, no apparent damage. A check of the electrical supply showed all was proper, and coincidently, another Montana had just unplugged and left the same spot just before we plugged in. Then on two other occasions at our home we plugged in and shortly thereafter found smoke billowing out from around our television. On the second incident we were able to get photographs. The dealer even sent a tech out to our home to confirm the power supply was proper. We had to deal directly and persistently with Keystone to get it resolved. You need to do the same. You have an '07 that is under warranty and something is apparently wrong. Why would your RV be the only one affected if there was a problem with the campground power, and it checked out properly right after the incident? Be patiently persistent. mike

[Ozz]

I urge everyone to check the electrical panel for tightness of all the wires. I got complete turns on the connections to the breakers and neutral wires. Loose wires equal heat, tripped breakers and possibly damaged equipment.
Bill, I would buy a good battery charger and take that with you on your weekend trip.
Try and have a good time. 'This too, shall pass'
Ozz

[richfaa]

keystone and the insurance company are doing the normal thing, trying to point the finger of responsibility toward the proper entity before anyone pays. Frustrating to us but that's the way it works.Agree about C.G power always being the prime suspect. That is whay the surge guard goes in first so it can read out the C.G power before the Camper gets plugged in. The power can be bad at only your power pedestal causing problems...And although you are under warranty this is another example of why we chose to have a extended warranty.

[Bill and Lisa]

Mike - Thanks. I will be patient. Since a lot of times alternative solutions are not considered until you raise them, can you tell me what turned out to be the casue of your problems? (doesn't mean that mine is the same)

Ozz - Thanks, based on previous posts (probably yours) I did check the cable connections on both busses when trouble shooting. Everything was tight.

Rich - thanks, and I understand the problem oould have resided only in our pedastal. I did put the surge guard in first and it read proper power. It didn't help me when things changed after that initial check. I am still really concerned that I had to go out and turn off the breaker manually to secure power to the unit. I am really glad we were still there. We should have left at least 5 minutes earlier but we were running behind. I guess this is another case of you get what you pay for protection wise - for $89 I get surge protection and monitoring for faults but no automatic corrective actions if a fault is detected.

After talking to Customer Service I contacted my insurance company and they are waiting for the dealer to finish his investigation and estimate. Rich, I also have the extended warranty (choice plan, supreme, items 1-23) Does anyone have experience on whether they would cover this even if Keystone Warranty doesn't? I am assuming that it would be better to have the extended warranty pay the claim vice my insurance company since the insurance company may raise my rates and the extended warranty is already full paid for.

thanks for all the help and patience. Long hours, on the road, away from home, worried about trying to work all the details long distance and things are probably not as clear to me as they probably should be.

Bill

[Bill and Lisa]

Wow, I am still on travel but the dealer called the wife this morning and he told us Keystone has authorized repair/replacement under warranty. I can't wait for a chance to talk to him and see what he found.

When I called wife this evening she said the dealer also said the front bedroom TV worked when he pluged it in. He thinks we mistook the smoke from the converter as coming from the tv since the converter is in that same area. I am now very interested in discussing this further. Our converter I believe I found was under the steps not up in the front of the coach. additionally I saw the smoke coming out of the air slots on the back of the TV and it didn't stop until I unplugged the TV. NO doubt in my mind on that. I am amazed the tv works but will want to look inside for melted insulation and or damage. Last thing I want is a repeat or someone getting shocked by it.

We will pick up the unit tomorrow, go camping, and bring it back when the parts get in.

Bill

[richfaa]

http://www.progressiveindustries.net/PT50C.asp


this is the device we use..it is not cheap..neither was our 3400/

[William Schelling]

Bill
Sorry to hear about your unit. I happen to have the same unit. I leave mine plugged in all the time. I think I will unplug it now. I am anxious to hear your problem. I do have an electrical back ground and when it comes to electricity almost anything can happen. I wouldn't be surprised when you find out what happened.
I would really appreciate it if you would let me know when you get your answer since I have the same unitl.