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03-20-2016, 07:05 AM
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#1
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Brake controller
A question for those out there with "newer" tow rigs, from around 2013 to 2016. Has anyone had trouble with their integrated brake controller? Just wondering as on our 2015 GMC we have started to have intermittent failure on ours. It is normal, then alarms and says check trailer connection, then goes back to normal. Sometimes frequently, sometimes a while in between. I do actually lose braking on the trailer when this occurs. Trailer went to dealer for thorough examination, no defects found. Now it's off to the GMC dealer, to check out the controller. Problem is, it's intermittent, so may have trouble identifying the problem. Anyway, just curious if anyone else has experienced a similar issue? I did also hook it up to a different trailer, and experienced a problem with it as well. Trailer is NOT going anywhere, until this is resolved.
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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03-20-2016, 07:41 AM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: STAYTON
Posts: 1,118
M.O.C. #18157
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Sounds like a pigtail plug issue to me.
Mark
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“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.”
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03-20-2016, 11:05 AM
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#3
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Arroyo City
Posts: 3,110
M.O.C. #13395
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I had a loose connection on the factory plug on my 2009 Ram
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03-20-2016, 12:03 PM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Both good suggestions. That is what I thought at first. But, after checking the pigtail, and all related connections in the trailer, it still didn't make a difference. And, the problem showed up on another trailer I have as well. Guess it's off to the dealer, for a very THOROUGH evaluation of the problem.
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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03-20-2016, 12:22 PM
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#5
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Warrior AL, usually
Posts: 184
M.O.C. #15888
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Do you have a 7 pin connector in your bed as well as on the rear bumper? If so, test both connections to see if you have the same intermittent in both. If you do, check the "Y" connector, usually behind your rear bumper - make sure it is seated well... just reseat it while you are there.
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03-20-2016, 01:08 PM
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#6
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hanover
Posts: 1,471
M.O.C. #13325
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Bama Camper
Do you have a 7 pin connector in your bed as well as on the rear bumper? If so, test both connections to see if you have the same intermittent in both. If you do, check the "Y" connector, usually behind your rear bumper - make sure it is seated well... just reseat it while you are there.
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Either this or some other wiring problem is probably the cause - these controllers are pretty bullet-proof.
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03-20-2016, 03:16 PM
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#7
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Clermont
Posts: 289
M.O.C. #17920
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You might check your safety brake pin connector on the trailer to make sure it's in all the way. If it's not, you could get an intermittent trailer fail. Happened to me just by the cable getting snagged a little under the hitch.
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03-20-2016, 07:06 PM
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#8
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Redding
Posts: 1,421
M.O.C. #12339
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Did they check relay? Friend had older GMC and he found out the relay was not seated well where it was plugged into fuse box. Not even sure they still use them in new trucks.
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03-20-2016, 07:30 PM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa az
Posts: 2,945
M.O.C. #5651
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I have this same thing happen. It most often happens as I am starting out within a few miles. I pull off the road and unhook and rehook the pigtail up and the message goes off. So I think it may be in the connector input. I think it happened sometimes on my previous trailer too, so am pretty sure it is in the truck. I gave a quick look at the in bed connector and it didn't seem to be anything that could come loose as it kind of was one piece with the cable.
Maybe I should check the Y behind the bumper, but that looks harder to do and I am old.
__________________
Tom and Gail
2013 Mountaineer 362
2012 Silverado 2500
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03-31-2016, 05:24 PM
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#10
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Well, an update to this problem. The truck AND trailer were taken to the GMC dealer. They went through it with a fine tooth comb. Pulled the receptacle apart and checked it. Replaced both control modules in the truck. Checked everything from "stem to stern" for problems. Had the factory tech on the phone helping them. Final result, a problem in the trailer. Now back to the RV dealer's shop for a reexamination. What they are finding (and research on the internet now bears this out) is the big three manufacturers, from about 2014 on, have changed the control modules to be EXTREMELY sensitive to trailer braking system problems. From what I'm told, the truck system constantly checks the continuity of the trailer system. If it sees even the slightest deviation from "normal" it goes into alarm, and SHUTS OFF THE BRAKE POWER. Apparently, a change of even one ohm difference can do it. As the investigation continues, it is looking like possibly one or more of the magnets may be slightly deteriorating, causing the situation. Cold mornings, no brakes. Later on, after it warms up, they start working. It has been frustrating for everyone, especially us. Older trucks, even the ones with integrated brake controls, such as my 2008, do not have this sophisticated of a system, so they are not so prone to this problem. Basically it's the lawyers, telling corporate to cover their behinds for ANY possibilities, so build systems that will shut down if the trailer so much as sneezes. My BIG beef is that if the system sees even a minor problem, it shuts down the voltage for braking. This is a HUGE safety issue to me. I personally think there should be some sort of manual override, just in case. With that in mind, I have submitted a complaint about this to the NHTSA. I would not have done so, except for finding out that this is a broader problem than we originally thought. When we find out what the "root" cause of this is, I will definitely post it. Both the RV dealer and the GMC dealer are working together to resolve this, as this may become a bigger issue in the future with the "new generation" of trucks and their controls. I would say the truck manufacturers and the trailer manufactures need to "talk".....but yeah, good luck with that. Stay tuned.........
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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03-31-2016, 05:42 PM
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#11
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: stockton
Posts: 405
M.O.C. #11457
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I had a simple oar problem with previous fifth wheel. After numerous trouble shooting episodes by both GM dealer and rv service center, finally discovered problem: Dexter runs the brake wires THROUGH the center of the axle. One of my wires had chafed from bouncing around, and would show as a short on the integrated controller whenever wire came in contact with the axle where the insulation had worn off. Ran all brake wires outside of axle, where they can be inspected, and no further issues. The guy who discovered it says he has seen it several times in the past.
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2014 Montana Mountaineer 331 RLT. Winneguard SWM Traveler Satellite Antenna, Progressive 50 amp portable EMS, 6 point Level Up.. 2016 Chevy 3500 Duramax Dually, long bed, B&W Patriot hitch.
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03-31-2016, 07:27 PM
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#12
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Warrior AL, usually
Posts: 184
M.O.C. #15888
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I had the same problem (or at least the same symptoms) for about a year. I was fooling around with the problem one day and measured continuity of the entire brake system on the trailer from the pigtail connection - the resistance value was varying as I stood there looking at it (no power on the system)! It would go from 5 to 6 to 7 and maybe 8 ohms, then back down again erratically. I finally found a crimp type connector that appeared good, but the connection was corroded inside. You could even pull on this wire and it would not come out of the connector, but the resistance of this connection was changing erratically. The new digital, proportional brake controllers do not like this and it will make them throw out error messages. The connection was under the coroplast, above the front axle on the driver's side. I replaced all the crimp connectors with soldered connections to all the brakes and they have been solid since.
The new brake controllers use pulse-width modulation instead of a varying analog voltage to control the brake magnets. I think the manufacturers do this in an attempt to make a "smarter" trailer brake and because it interfaces better with their other digital engine sensors and controls (computer) to vary the braking power above certain speeds, and at different brake pedal pressure. But, they are more "finicky". There have been so many problems with them, that I understand Etrailer is selling an wiring adapter to be able to use a standard Prodigy controller (analog) with the existing wiring from the factory controller.
So, the bottom line is - don't trust the trailer connections even if they look good, and dig out the buried connections. In fact, you may want to look at the continuity through all the brakes to be sure it is correct and not varying which would indicate an intermittent connection. If you have a reliable ohmmeter, check between pins 3 & 4 of the pigtail connector. As you hold the trailer connector in your hand and look at the pins, they are the two that are directly across the connector (opposite side) from the square key - (ground and brake). For a four brake system the value should be around 1 to 4 ohms total.
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04-01-2016, 06:13 AM
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#13
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Thank you all for your input. Interesting that the controllers have gotten so complicated. Bama Camper, I also checked continuity, and so did the GMC tech. It went from .08 to 1.7 ohms. It depended on outside temperature. So, it appears that the wire, or more likely the connections are suspect. Looks like the trailer manufacturers had better step up their act on something as critical as brakes!
Will update on what we find.
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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04-01-2016, 08:14 AM
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#14
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lima
Posts: 138
M.O.C. #18168
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TAKPAK ... thanks for the information. This is very important to me. I look forward to hearing how you manage this problem. Analog to Digital seems to have been a problem for years and the 'new' connectors don't help any. Thanks again for the information.
Dennis
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04-05-2016, 02:32 PM
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#15
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Justme44
TAKPAK ... thanks for the information. This is very important to me. I look forward to hearing how you manage this problem. Analog to Digital seems to have been a problem for years and the 'new' connectors don't help any. Thanks again for the information.
Dennis
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Well, I wish I had better news, unfortunately I do not. After four days at the GM dealer, and three days at the trailer dealer, the problem has not yet been found. And, wouldn't you know, the system is working....for the moment. No error messages. At this point, I'm taking the dealer's suggestion and installing a Prodigy P3 control unit, and taking the integrated system out of the loop, for the moment. The Prodigy has more features and diagnostics, so hopefully IF the problem occurs again, we will be able to sort it out. This is one of those puzzles that has both dealers scratching their heads, and me tearing my hair out. We WILL eventually get to the bottom of this, one way or another. As I've researched other forums, I'm finding this is not an isolated problem. Stay tuned, I will let everyone know what comes of this.....no matter HOW long it takes.
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Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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04-05-2016, 03:44 PM
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#16
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Warrior AL, usually
Posts: 184
M.O.C. #15888
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If it ain't broke you can't fix it! Intermittent problems are frustrating to find.
I'm still suspicious of your crimp connectors. I've seen too many failures of them in my career in electronics, especially in relatively high current circuits. Even though the new integrated brake controllers are finicky, once they work, they are generally reliable unless something changes. Since you were seeing a change in the total resistance of .08 to 1.7 ohms in the contacts of the pigtail, I would suspect a poor connection somewhere in the trailer. There are only so many connections in the brake circuit ->
1)the connection of the pigtail to the trailer main brake wire, in the junction box under the pin box. These are easy to remake just to eliminate. No need to redo all the connections in there, just the brake circuit - one brake wire and the point where the brake ground wire is connected with the other ground wires. Usually a wad of 6 to 8 under a big wire nut or crimp connector.
2)the connection of the main brake wires to the point where the magnet wires come together (2 sets of 2). "Murphy" says this will be the bad connection because it's the hardest to get to (it's under the edge of the coroplast)! This is the one that was intermittent on mine.
3)the connection of each magnet to the wires that come from the "star" connection under the coroplast. Also the connections on the other end of each axle. These connections would be easy to test if you have someone watching the ohmmeter as you wiggle, pull and twist on each connection.
Sometimes it easier to "shotgun" a problem like this and just replace all the possible connections.
Good luck - keep us posted.
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04-07-2016, 06:09 AM
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#17
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Well, the saga continues. I did find out that a company called Continental (German company, apparently) makes the integrated controller for both Ram and GM, while Tekonsha makes the one for Ford. I did get a nice reply back from Tekonsha. They said (of course) that the P3 should take care of my problem. They also said that they have heard of problems with some of the GM/Ram controllers. So I guess the next question is, are any FORD people having trouble with theirs? I am now attempting to contact Continental for a reply to my problem. We'll see......
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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04-07-2016, 05:41 PM
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#18
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Clermont
Posts: 289
M.O.C. #17920
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No problems at all with mine. 2015 F250 and 2016 F350.
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04-07-2016, 10:06 PM
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#19
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Redding
Posts: 1,421
M.O.C. #12339
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Mine works fantastically!
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04-12-2016, 03:20 PM
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#20
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro
Posts: 593
M.O.C. #8238
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Well, the end result to this brake problem was to disable the factory unit, and install a new Tekonsha Prodigy P-3. Neither the GM dealer nor the trailer dealer could find the source of the problem, since it was so intermittent. The P-3 comes with some really great reviews, so decided that was the best option to go with. We shall see. So far, so good. Road trip coming up soon. I liked the ITBC, but it was becoming very unreliable, hence the choice to go with the aftermarket one with a fairly proven track record.
__________________
Terry and Patsy
Vietnam Veteran, US Navy
2017 3810
2015 GMC Sierra 4X4 3500 SRW
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