Major Roof Repair on 2016 - Input Please - Montana Owners Club

gosland · 10-17-2016, 11:37 AM

Our rear AC leaked water into air returns when the AC was running AND it was raining. We are not full timers, so this has only happened a couple of times. Brought it to a dealer. They tell me they are calling Keystone to see what to do because the roof is warped, causing the seal to not properly contact roof. When AC is running during rain it is “sucking water in” through the seal. They also said due to warp, the air intakes are squeezed down and restricting airflow. They said this may require an entire roof replacement. Since this is a 2016 and requires major repairs that could take months, I feel I should ask them to replace the entire camper. Am I out of line? Thoughts?

mlh · 10-17-2016, 11:43 AM

You are not out of line. That is what they should do but they are not going to replace your camper.
Lynwood

1retired06 · 10-17-2016, 12:20 PM

Agree, they will not replace. Hope for a good repair.

**DQDick** · 10-17-2016, 03:26 PM

I wouldn't let the dealer be the only one contacting Keystone. I'd call Customer Service, open a file, and then stay in contact with Keystone on everything the dealer is saying.

mazboy · 10-18-2016, 01:19 AM

somehow get the service dept. up in goshen to take you in and repair the damage/problem.

i see you are from florida but if you can get into the service center you have a better chance than at a dealer.

and if it is a 2016 you have a warranty...use it to it's fullest.

jcurtis934 · 10-18-2016, 04:52 AM

And if the factory doesn't seem to be all that attentive given the warrenty issue, well, trailer life does publish such things and most are resolved. Of course, this assumes dealer is really working on your interests and they agree the issue needs a nudge if done without hurting their business. You have to have a good conversation with the dealer. John

bowlesj · 10-28-2016, 05:42 AM

Gosland,

Please be absolutely sure the dealer is correct in diagnosing your leak as a bad roof. I cannot tell for sure from your sig pic but it looks like you have the same a/c unit as the 2016 3820FK that we have.

This a/c unit has 2 design flaws that one, lets rain water into the equipment bay area via the top/bottom cover seam and two, an extra set of mounting holes that condensate and rain water can get into the return air duct and run down to the vent area. All of these units on all make RV's have this problem but most dealers fail to recognize it initially, and then do a poor repair. The fix requires sealing some very specific holes and an extra step that I have added that even Dometic claims isn't necessary.

You just want to be sure before going through all the rework of replacing or repairing the roof. Also, the return air ducts are almost always crushed to some extent by insulation etc. and can be propped open gently with some PVC pipe permanently stuck in the duct.

Good luck,

John

mewlake · 10-29-2016, 03:32 AM

We had the same problem on our 2017 Montana 3720. It took two trips back to the dealer to repair the problem. New gaskets and some caulking. I have also put PVC pipe in the return air vents to keep the roof insulation from collapsing the vents. I went back to the RV dealer and inspected the vents on the new 2017 models arriving. All trailers that I had looked at some sort of return air vent collapse. So far it looks like Keystone has not done anything to rectify this problem.

Butch & Kathy · 10-29-2016, 11:23 AM

I have the same problem John (Bowlesj) with water coming in through the extra mounting holes in the return air compartment. I spoke with Dometic and they agreed to replace the top and bottom covers as they say mine is warped. The real issue as John said is they are improperly designed.

Still waiting for CW to get the correct top and bottom covers but has sealed the holes.

jameswbarton · 10-29-2016, 01:34 PM

Mold Mildew, 2016 Hire a lawyer and go after a replacement.

navybanker · 10-31-2016, 04:32 AM

How do you determine you have a problem by just inspecting the roof and removing the filter inside? It has been a hot/dry summer and not sure we have run the a/cs when raining. We are ready to winterize and store for the winter. By the time spring comes and make a trip may be out of warranty. We have the dometics. This is a problem that needs to be caught early! Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Exnavydiver · 10-31-2016, 06:28 AM

Specifically what model AC is this issue a problem on? I am not familiar with the newer rigs and AC units as we have an 08 but I imagine others would appreciate the exact make and model numbers on the problem units.

bowlesj · 10-31-2016, 08:03 AM

There are a variety of model numbers with this design. Ours is a 541916. I think the marketing name is Blizzard NXT 15,000BTU. The unit looks like this. This unit is typically installed in the rear position but I have worked on Heartlands that have them in both front and back. The only way to know you have water intrusion is to hose your A/C down and remove the inlet grills and filter. You can reach a finger into the outboard aft corners of the opening and feel for water but I recommend using a flashlight and mirror to have a peek in the duct. Have a bucket in place just in case.

Water can get in from rain through the seam shown in the next image below. There is no flashing (overlap) designed into the top cover and rain can run directly into the inside bay where the A/C equipment resides. This in it's self would not be so bad as there are plenty of drain holes outside the roof seal. However, the designers failed to recognize that they have alternate mounting holes that can end up inside the return air duct on most installations.

Dometic recommends sealing these mounting holes along with raising any harnesses in the area so they do not lay in puddles. All I have seen are fine on the harness. This work is accomplished after removing the forward styrofoam upper insulation and will require replacement of the sealing tape and putty. See the image below for the 2 areas as indicated by the 2 outboard arrows. The 2 inboard arrows mark the area where I do additional sealing as explained below. (Vehicle forward is down in the image.)

I'll try to explain why you need to seal underneath, inside the duct as well as best I can. There are 2 layers of plastic here about 3/8" apart vertically. The mounting hole is drilled through both layers. Then a rivnut is installed in the top layer only and the lower shank of the rivnut protrudes into the lower hole but does not fill it. Water gets between these 2 layers and is able to drip past the rivnut shank into the bottom hole and thus into the return air duct. The RV techs I've spoke with have only sealed the upper hole and said they have had no returns. However, one tech that works at a dealer had the opportunity to test one after sealing and sure enough it was wet in the duct, much less but still wet. He convinced his boss to let him add the extra sealant I had discussed with him previously and further testing saw no water. I never advocate sealing a leak from the exit but you really have no choice on this case and there is very little pressure built up by the pooling water. So, in this last image you can see the additional silicone added to the underside of the mounting hole which is actually in the upper aft corner of the return duct. Hope this all makes some sense for those interested.

As far as warped roofs? Maybe, but this is a problem for sure if this A/C unit is installed.

John

navybanker · 10-31-2016, 11:27 AM

I think we have what they call dometic "whisper quiet" units with the return ducts on each side of the ceiling. You can not get directly under the a/c units inside. I assume these could also be a problem? If so, not sure how to check these from inside. Thanks,

bowlesj · 10-31-2016, 04:47 PM

The unit I am speaking of IS the 'Whisper quiet system." This is the only type of installation with return ducting. You pop the grills off and look inside the opening on each side of the coach. The water immediately runs down inside the duct to one or both sides depending on level. I can see in your sig pic that you have the unit in discussion.

John

gosland · 11-01-2016, 02:43 AM

Thanks for the input. I had already sealed the extra mounting holes before I had brought it in. The dealer doing the repairs had also mentioned that the return ducts were a problem and they planned on using pvc to hold them up. The dealer put a straight edge across the roof next to the AC unit and indeed the weight of the unit was causing the roof to bow down a bit. The repairman felt that there needed to be cross members in place to keep the unit from sagging the roof. The dealer has reported this to Keystone and they are waiting to hear back on how to proceed.

navybanker · 11-01-2016, 03:16 AM

Okay, you have my attention! Now, how to test for leaks. I assume from reading this post that the a/c must be running and raining to check for leaks. So, guess can spray water on top of a/c while it is running and check inside by taking the plastic screen and filters off. Does the a/c really need to be running?? My camper is hooked to a 20 amp garage receptacle and usually don't run the a/c on this hookup. Additionally, have the "low profile" front a/c unit. Is this also suspect? Have been debating taking the camper to the dealer before spring for some "minor" warranty issues but definitely will if can determine if this leak is happening. Then the question is are these dealers aware of this problem? Water did drip on our shake down trip but thought it was condensation. Ran the fan on high and no dripping. Looking back maybe it was no rain after that! Thanks,

bowlesj · 11-01-2016, 05:07 AM

No the A/C doesn't need to run. Just drench it with a hose and be prepared to catch any water that comes in. The duct is fairly well sealed and as long as it doesn't get too water logged there shouldn't be any other damage. I believe that often times water will get in during rain and puddle in the outboard portion of the duct outlet then evaporates quickly with airflow and doesn't show itself until it puddles enough to drip out the opening.

The front lower profiles are completely different in design and have no problems, except in my case where the factory left the forward 2 mount bolts loose. Yep, got pictures of that too.

John

navybanker · 11-01-2016, 07:14 AM

I hosed the a/c down for several minutes with nozzle set on shower mode. I sprayed underneath, on top, all sides with a strong spray. I stuffed paper towel sheets in each return inside with grid and filter off. Pushed the paper towel sheets to each corner. Waited over 30 minutes and no hint of moisture inside the returns.
I will keep my fingers crossed! Thanks for info in case moisture does appear in future.

bowlesj · 11-02-2016, 05:54 AM

navybanker,

Excellent news glad to hear your dry. Good luck on any other problems you run into as well.

John

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