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Old 01-06-2005, 10:24 AM   #1
harleyrider
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Heard back from Dealer-Good news&bad news

Well as you guys know I droped off my Montana for warrenty work.The dealer called today and they are already working on the fixes.Not bad for only being down their 4 days.The washer/dryer came in already.Their fixing the fiberglass cab where it seperated from the roof.The bed room slide crack will be brased up and then they send it out to have the fiberglass repaired.all great news.I also am having them do a "seal Test"where they pressurize the inside and apply soapy water to the out side to check for leaks around the windows.Now if their happens to be leaks,keystone has told the dealer that this is a owners responibility to fit the leaks.Not covered under the warrenty.I was surprized at that.The dealer told me that if the windows are leaking,the way they fix the leak problem is they take the window completely out,remove the old caulk and reseal.The dealer said depending on how many windows this would involve it could be costly to me.i`am kind of disappointed that its not covered under warrenty,but not much I can do I guess.I guess this is the price I`am paying for buying a 3 year old left over.I can`t imagine if it was a 2005 and the windows where leaking that it would be the owners responabilty to seal the windows them selves.
 
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:16 AM   #2
azstar
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HDRDR,

We had found a couple of window leaks when ours was new. The dealer was able to fix them to our satisfaction. He used a water stream to locate them. If we were to have this test done, I'm sure there would be many air leaks found, that don't leak water into the Rig. I'll take a pass on this test.

Sometimes it is better to leave sleeping Dogs lie. I could see this turning into a real quagmire.

This may be the reason Keystone is a bit back off-ish in this regard.

I also bet 90% of all rigs (MH's, 5er's and TT's) out there would fail this test.

Wish you the best
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:35 AM   #3
harleyrider
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Steve and Nina

I hear what your saying on the window leaks.I have been out in the pouring down rain and have had no leaks.I think I will still let them do the test.For some reason It would make me feel better.Its quite possible that they do the test and their will be no leaks.Lets up so huh?

But the sleepy dogs lie theory is some thing I will consider.And if they do detect leaks,they will not do any thing until they contact me.This pressure test they do puts 3 pounds of pressure in the rig.Doesn`t seem like a lot.But I understand what your saying.Just because air is present doen`t really mean that water will leak in.The dealer didn`t give me any price on fixing the windows yet.And I have no idea what they would charge.We will see.
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Old 01-06-2005, 12:03 PM   #4
azstar
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HDRDR,

In the Aerospace Bus. we often used low pressure to test Aircraft for leaks the same way your Rig is going to be tested. If a higher pressure is used you have a potential for a bomb going off. Compressed air has a lot of what's refered to as stored energy.

My career ended up in Structural Testing for the Aircraft Engine Bus. in which I use a lot of methodology including Air pressure. Even 10 psi at that volume is something to be respected. It always amazed me to see air pressure treated lightly. I had to laugh one time I saw a sign on a compressed air tank that said "Do Not Hit With Hammer" I can't imangine someone out there doing that, but I guess there out there somewhere.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:30 PM   #5
RVBUDDY
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You bet 10psi is a lot.

Force = pressure x area

so if you have 10 lbs/sqinches x 144sqinches you have a force of 1440lbs on each sq ft inside the camper.

Thats a lot of force.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:48 PM   #6
azstar
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How about a Lady's spiked high heels. Say 1/4" heel. A 125 Lb. Lady standing on one heel = 2000 psi and 288,000 Lbs. per. sq. foot.

Now that's a serious load.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:07 PM   #7
NJ Hillbilly
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I would have them give You a list of the windows that need to be sealed and do it Yourself. True the way they are sealed when new is a bead of sealant around the window then it is pressed into it but if the old sealant is scraped away and a good silicone is applied and worked into the edge it will be sealed just fine.

The reality is that this resealing is commonplace and I don't know anyone who pulls the windows out and does it that way. Resealing is needed every few years and is part of maintenance.

There will always be air leaks, it's a camper not a submarine.



John
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:23 PM   #8
harleyrider
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NJ HillBilly

"its a camper not a supmarine"Point well taken.Like I said depending on what this seal test finds,then i`ll decide on my course of action.Their was a good article on resealing around the windows.And it does look like some thing even i could accomplish.A little time consuming but non the less its doable.I`1l just have to weight the price from the dealer and my willingness to tackle the job myself.

I believe "azstar" said I`ll bet 90% of all Rv`s would fail this test.He probably would win that bet huh?
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Old 01-07-2005, 02:59 AM   #9
Glass Guy
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Harleyrider, if you find out what windows are leaking and I doubt that they are if you are not getting any water inside. The way these windows a made you will get some air to get threw where the glass slides. What you will need to do if they find the laek to be between the window frame and the fiberglass is go to a autoglass shop and get enough buttle tape of if you can find this stuff in your area it is called M-seal it is what most auto manufactures use for bolt in glass. The job of removing the window frames is not a hard one just time consuming, the one thing that I would recomend is not to use silicone, once you use it nothing else will stick to it, If someone comes to me with a windshield that is leaking and used silicone to try to stop it I won't touch it, because nothing will stick to it. I did not think your Montana had a problem with the windows leaking, don't fix whats not broke. Roman
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:05 AM   #10
Bill and Ann
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Harleyrider: You have to remember than some of the windows are the crank-up and a very little pressure will cause them to go out a bit. Doesn't mean they are going to leak. Be very selective on what you "fix" as you might go overboard. We had one of the crank-up windows whistle in the wind. Rubber weatherseal fixed it.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:20 AM   #11
Chester
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Harleyrider, I'm with everyone else. Unless you have a water leak leave everything alone. I wouldn't even do the test. What you don't know won't hurt and I bet there are air leaks anyway.

I don't think I'll tell my wife about that weight thing with high heels. Just another example of leaving well enough alone LOL!!!!
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Old 01-07-2005, 04:01 AM   #12
Thunderman
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If the windows leak after a water test, then Keystone should repair the window in question. Your 5er still carries a new units warranty regardless of year being you are the first owner. I will bet they were afraid the pressure test has the possibility of producing a number of problems. Air leaks that may not be real "problems".
Don't fix what is not broken...good advice.
Does the sealant around windows etc, appear to have cracks in it? Would not be unusual for some three year old units. I was told that anytime the sealant shows cracks, it should be replaced.
Good luck!
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:04 AM   #13
sgf
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Harleyrider,we too have had windows leaks in our unit, dealer removed them and re-sealed and re-installed them,cost to us, nothing.Now we have a 2004 unit, your unit and ours both carry the same warranty so i would assume keystone should take care of this even if it is a three year old unit.As far as the air pressure test, i know that crossroads or open roads;not sure which brand,claims they do this to every fifth wheel they build, so i personnally do not think it would harm the unit unless keystone's is that inferior in build,maybe they do a vacuum test so gotta watch what i say here.You also stated the dealer is sending your unit out for fiberglass repair,we just had that done and the work was terrible,dealer says they will re-do the work at their cost because it met keystones repair policy.If this job met their policies they must be low because my 5 year old grand-daughter could have done better job.Thank god my dealer is halfway decent.Sorry to hear of all your problems and hope all works out.Our unit is now out of warranty per keystone,even though it is still at dealers for warranty work, been there since nov. 16th.I have lost all faith in keystone and jeff rank, he does not even return phone calls or e-mails,i know we have cost keystone at least 10 sales with the poor quality of our unit and evenmore the bad backing up from the company. I know some of you have had great backing after the warranty,and that is great;but, we have not and hope mr. rank is at the rv shows in Chantilly,Va. and Timonium,Md. this year,i will speak my mind.Well enough of me blowing steam, good luck with your repairs and let us know how things work out, we are going to the shows to replace this lemon of a unit.
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Old 01-07-2005, 09:24 AM   #14
DrivesBGM
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I'd love to see a 5er that has been prepaired for an air pressure test! There are many, many leak points in my Montana. Some of the openings are very large, like the entry point from the fresh water tank to the water pump and all the heater vents that have access to dumping air into the undercarriage.

I'm not saying that it can't be done but it must take a lot of work to build up any meaningful pressure.

Craig
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:13 AM   #15
harleyrider
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Well its looks like the "if its not broke don`t fix it"Is the answer from most of the posta I read here.And I tend to agree.If you go to the dealers web site and click on "tech tips"it will show you this machine they use to pressurize.i`am sure where I have the crank open windows that their will be air threw them.can`t see how it wouldn`t.Any way their the link to the web site.Take a look at this machine. www.parkviewrv.com
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Old 01-07-2005, 10:22 AM   #16
harleyrider
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Thunderman

yes some of the windows where its caulked is brittle.You can but I haven`t probably pick it out with your finger nail.My reasoning for having the test done was IF it did show leaks that because my Montana is still under warrenty that Keystone would foot the bill to repair the leaks.But it looks like thats not the case.I do know that every "Open Road"trailer does have this test done before delivery.Others might also but I won`t know of any off hand.After I get the results of the test(costing me 90 bucks)i`ll make my decision on what i`ll do then.
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:28 AM   #17
DrivesBGM
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HarleyRider,

Thanks for the link! I'm sure that this test works. But I'm still amazed that you can build up any pressure in these 5ers with all the normal escape routes for the air!

Please let us know what you find out. Can you (and will you) be present for the test?

Craig
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Old 01-08-2005, 09:17 AM   #18
Montana_265
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I am going to an RV show this weekend... If we decide to upgrade and go Montana again, I will get much in writing from the dealer and go over that bugger with a fine tooth comb before bringing it home. I am sure all brands have problems (the only brand we had a problem with was our Montana and a popup - had three other campers). I love the 2955, but to be honest, I am scared to get another. We got all the bugs out of this one (a 2000). Sorry to be so negative...
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Old 01-08-2005, 09:55 AM   #19
padredw
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I note your admiration for the 2955RL. We have a 2002 model 2955RL and have had almost no problems with it. It is our top choice for the kind of traveling we do -- not full time, but often on the move. I would not have known about the kind of problems some owners have had if I had not read this forum. It is beyond explanation why some have so few problems and some have so many. Still I value this forum and think we ought to value every experience and opinion without being defensive. I hope the folks at Keystone/Montana will be responsive to every problem. That is the best defense.
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:44 PM   #20
sreigle
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The windows also have two small weep holes in the bottom of the frame. I guess their purpose is to drain moisture from the inside window frame area. Hitting the lower frame with water under pressure from the outside will always result in water inside the frame. At least it does on ours. So be sure when they're testing that it's not the weep holes and you're paying to fix something that can't be fixed.

As far as Keystone warranting the window leakage, I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Keystone on this one simply because the rig is a 2001 model, now four model years old and three years out of warranty. If it can be shown the windows were leaking during the warranty period and never properly fixed I'd feel differently. Seals and caulking do require maintenance and sometimes have to be replaced. At four years old I would probably consider this an owner-maintenance item. I wouldn't be very happy about the expense, though, but don't think I could consider Keystone responsible for that. Just my opinion, though.
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