Arctic Package

[cooksters]

Who has some cold camping experiences to share about what I can expect when I take my Montana out in cold weather. I have the Arctic Package I'm very courious to know what that rig can or can't do in the cold. Any freeze up stories would be appreciated. Giturdone

[Montana_657]

Search back for a thread on freezeing fulltimers.

The Arctic package gives you foil bubble wrap between the frame rails under the tanks. The steel rails are uninsulated. The ends of your tank spaces are steel exposed to the great outdoors.

Your plumbing lays on top of the foil and plastic belly. Right at the low point drains is the first point of freezeing...in my case at 30F. I pulled 20 feet of pipe out of there, ran about 3 feet of line through the basement to replace it an keep the water in the warmer spaces.

Your slide floors are uninsulated...carpet, foam underlay, some foil bubble wrap and plywood... that's it... no fiber glass in there. Real cold....slides in.

I hope you have thermopane windows.... I have heard of some being deliverd with regular windows.

Don't use electric space heat when it's real cold. The furnace heats the tanks so they don't freeze. We add a 500 watt heater in the bedroom and let the propane heat the rest of the coach.

We did an overnight slides in at -3F. By morning the furnace had just about drained the coach battery. In those temperatures 100lbs of propane lasts 5 to 7 days. If your gonna use it in the cold, larger propane tanks are a must.

Sorry if this dissapoints you but the Arctic Package is just a name... not a indication of improved performance.

[jsnip42]

I would have to agree with Gruffy. I paid extra to get the artic package but I am suprised on how much heat it takes to keep the coach warm. I think it was money wasted.

[Bob & Lee]

artic package, is a name but overall for a trailer w/no skirting not bad. mine had the water freeze at about 10 deg in the bathroom sink so I opened the belly and the water line was laying across the steel cross beam I insulated it and it hasnot froze yet, but Iam watching it and if id does I will put a heat tape on it for the cold nights none of the other water has froze and we have been at about 3deg wind chill -10 or so. when I opened the belly I saw the fiberglass up aginst the floor covering the heat vents and a line coming down to heat the open area where the water lines are then the bubble stuff and the plastic bottom.I have gone around and put foam in all the cracks in the underbelly. the slides are cold and I havent figured what to do there, when I bought ours we didnt get doubble pane windows and didnt know better So i have made plexaglass storm windows for the inside and it helped very much. we are in a park and have a 100 Gal tank the gas Co fills and so far we are using about 40 Gal per Month.. I found out about GAS 100 Lb tanks are 11 Gal so you got to know what they are talking about Lbs or Gal. we are paying about $1.30 a Gal.Oh yea we are in Colorado Springs CO.

[Bob & Lee]

Forgot the Fireplace is great to heat the living room ant the new Hunter Thermostat is great it keeps the heater from running so long with the wide temp swing, well worth the $20. and the switch for the Hi LO fan.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

quote:Originally posted by Gruffy
I hope you have thermopane windows.... I have heard of some being deliverd with regular windows.

Just wanted to point out that the dual pane (thermopane) windows are not part of the Artic Package. They are an additional option.

Keep in mind that an RV is not a stickhouse with 4 to 6 inch walls. There is just so much insulating to be done in walls and floor just an inch or two thick.
Minus 3 degrees and no electric hook up is something I would not attempt in any RV, Artic Package or not. But seeing as Gruffy did it and still had some battery left by morning is saying something to me.
I myself have not been in any freezing temps while in our Montana as we escape to Fla each winter. But I do know there are numerous members out there that are quite frequently out there in the cold and will be coming forth shortly.

[Random Line]

Just spent last 2 weeks of November in Aberdeen, SD in our Montana. Ran furnace quite a bit. About 10 to 12 # of propane a day. Avg temps 35 F daily highs 10 to 15 nightly lows. Ran two electric heaters at night. One blowing into pump compartment. One blowing into kitch cabinet space.

Kitchen water (from storage tank) usually frozen until about noon.
Bathroom sink cold (very cold) water never froze nor did stool.

Everything works much better here now in Oklahoma.

Have arctic pack and dual pane windows. Although I am not sure that one of the exchanged windows from Customer Service back in Oct wasn't a single pane. Have to check into that.


Still got by fairly well in our MOntana. end

[Montana_2180]

I have Arctic Package as well...but I went the extra ten miles...!

I heat taped all the belly pipe I could touch after dropping the belly panels...and then put the foam insulation around them.

I know not everyone can or is willing to do that, just stay prepared and pay attention and you'll be OK.

As for it getting cold inside...I have just adjusted my mentality...I put sweats on and thick socks and run the space heater ...but not too high in case it gets too warm inside and too cold out that the tanks would freeze due to furnace not coming on...

Hope that helps...

Chip

[cooksters]

Wow, now that's what I call information. So much to know but that's why we are all here, to help each other. We appreciate all the tips and we are finding out one thing that maybe all of us have or should know about life... ASK! Ask those that have done so already as experience is the very best teacher. Merry Christmas...for those that ain't afraid to say it!

[fulltimedreamer]

Our experiences have been the same as others. And yes, this is agreat place for information on anything Montana. Also, from our family to yours (and we're not afraid to say it) MERRY CHRISTMAS and a Happy NEW YEAR to all our MOC friends.

[sreigle]

We did much as the others did, with the foam insulation in openings in the belly and in the basement, insulating pipes in the basement with the foam tubes. The low point drains were a weak point for us last winter so I wrapped them with roll insulation then put foam tubes over that, more roll insulation, then wrapped all that in duct tape. Last winter ours froze when the temperature got down around 14. Haven't been below 25 yet this winter.

I also put insulation against the back wall under the cabinets, inside the water heater compartment, and below the computer desk. In the 3295 this area is not insulated despite the artic package. And we don't have dual pane windows so used the 3M window film on them.

We use two electric heaters to supplement the propane furnace, also, but be sure when it's below freezing outside you don't let the electric heaters keep the furnace from running. The furnace outlets warm air into the belly and you need that to happen.

[cargary]

Steve:
Got to thinking about the heating of the belly area of the fiver after I replied to your last message to us on a similiar topic. It appears to me that a separate thermostatically controled heater for the belly area would go at long way to help with keeping it above freezing there. While at the same time not interferring with the temperature confort level provided by the main furnace in the living area. Does this have any merit? This may not solve all of the problems and will undoubtedly cost more to implement, but comfort and less hassle is worth something also. Just a thought.
Gary & Carole

[sreigle]

Gary & Carole, I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure how practical it would be to implement, though. There would have to be some kind of mechanism to shut off the coach vents when the basement thermostat calls for heat but the coach one doesn't. And vice-versa. Or a small, separate furnace. Or maybe just an electric heating element in the basement, on a thermostat, with an on/off switch in the coach.

You got the thought process going, though. Maybe others will jump in with other ideas and maybe Keystone will read this and give it some thought.

Thanks.

[Montana_657]

Probably won't work. The propane runs on 12 volts, it will run anywhere, no plug in required so it works on the highway.

12 volt tank heaters are only 200 watts or so, and they only heat the tank... the pipes in there would freeze. The will drain a battery in a few hours.

120 volt space heaters would only work when plugged in... not on the road, not for a night at Wally Mart.

Running the furnace on propane gives a lot more bang for the buck. The greatest improvement that I could think of was a probe in the tank spaces to monitor the temperature down there. Then, if it's cooling off you turn off any electric heat and turn up the propane to keep the frost out.

[sreigle]

I'll be turning down the electric heat tonight and setting the furnace on 55 and closing the door to upstairs. Forecast low for tonight is 10F. Brrr.

[jrgwdenner]

Our Montana is parked next to the house while in "storage". We have found that a remote thermometer is great for checking on the temp inside the fiver, even at 3 a.m. The readout unit is in the stick house and we can monitor the fiver to see if we need to turn on the furnace.

[cargary]

Gruffy:
As you have described, the propane does run off the 12 volt system, therefore allowing us that want to, to use it to take the chill off while traveling down the road. This is probably the most efficient way to keep the water system from freezing. My thought is, (of course this costs extra) would it be feesable to have a separate heater - propane, to heat just the belly area and another to heat the living area. In this way, they would be independent of each other and not interfere with each other. This would allow usage of the living area heater for heating at a comfort level to ones satisfaction and also allow the heating of the belly area to a level to prevent heating. Each unit would have their own thermostat for independent regulation.
Of course, extra insulation the pipes and tanks would be necessary.
Does this have any merit? Thanks for your comments.
Gary & Carole

[Montana_657]

Sounds like it would work, but the cost would probably keep most of us from trying it.

The of course the space required. There is lots of room in the belly, but it would have to be serviced from underneath. I guess a corner of the basement would work, but then you lose storage space.

A larger duct from the existing furnace with a thermostaticly controlled damper might be feaseble... lots of bang for the buck and light weight. When the belly warms the extra air flow could be redirected into the coach.

[cargary]

Gruffy:
That extra large damper with thermostatic control sounds like a better solution and appears to be a great idea.
Do you know how the current setup is structured. What I mean is does the current setup just provide heated air to the belly whether you want to heat it or not? Or does it have a damper where it can be closed off or metered down? If there is no adjustment to the current setup, this would mean that under not so cold conditions where the heat doesn't need to go to the belly to prevent freezing it would be wasted. If this is the current setup, then it is not a very efficient system. There is many times when it cools down into the low fifties and some heat is desired and instead of it being directed 100% into the living area, some of it is being diverted to be belly are where its not needed - hence, wasted energy. If this is the case, one could see that an adjustable damper would definitely be desireable here. Your idea would be great in this case also. I do believe that better insulation is needed also.
Thanks for your comments. Its good to have these discussions - It caused us to think out these issues.
Gary & Carole

[sreigle]

My understanding is it is undampered. The only value I can see for that when above freezing is maybe providing a slightly warmer area below the floor, keeping the floor from getting quite so cold and thus helping a little in the coach. I'm reaching here.