Brochure weights - how are they figured? - Montana Owners Club

sreigle · 06-24-2006, 12:07 PM

I'm looking through the latest brochure and doing some calculations.

We know that GVWR is calculated from adding the shipping weight to the carrying capacity. We also know GVWR is the highest weight our Montanas should be allowed to weigh.

To figure how much of the total weight is on the axles, we would subract hitch weight (from the brochure) from the GVWR. What is interesting is that when I do that calculation on all models, NINE of the TWELVE models calculate to 12,000 lbs. That just happens to be the axle ratings on these models.

Now, the other three models all show weight on the axles being exactly 10,400 lbs. All three are the same 10,400 while the other nine are all 12,000. These three models are the 2955RL, 2980RL, and 3000RK. So is 10,400 the axle rating on these three models? Or do these have 12,000 (two 6,000 lb) axles?

So, is the amount of weight on the axles what drives the GVWR? Not exceeding the frame max would have to be a limiting factor also. And what exactly is the max weight on the frame? If we went to 7,000 lb axles would we increase GVWR by 2,000 lbs?

Why does the 3600RE show carrying capacity of 1875 lbs while the 3295RK shows 3405 and the 3075RL shows 3835? All three have the same axles.

Our model's published pinweight (2003 brochure) is 2300, GVWR is 14,300, and cc is 3940. Subtracting pinweight from GVWR is 12,000, same as we see on all those 2006 models and same as our axles. In the 2003 brochure there is a line for GVWR. So, is GVWR the pinweight plus axle rating? Our actual pinweight is 3300. Axles are rated for 12,000. So is our true GVWR up to 15,300, assuming the frame max is not exceeded?

Lots of questions, few answers. I wonder if anyone from Keystone would email me or call to discuss this?

The new brochure shows high-gloss adding 200 lbs, not 600 as in prior brochures! That's much more realistic to me.

By the way, Keystone, if you're reading this, the 2006 brochure specs show a 3600RE but the floorplans on the same page show it as a 3600RL. Oops.

Cat320 · 06-24-2006, 02:23 PM

Won't attempt to answer all your questions, here is some info:

GAWR + hitch wt = GVWR (for the 2955: 5200 + 5200 + 1820 = 12,200).
Ship wt + cargo cap = GVWR (for 2955: 9895 + 2325 = 12,200).
As you noted, the 2955, 2980 and 3000, all have 5200 GAWR axles. All others (including the 3075) have 6000 GVWR axles.

Re the 3075/3295/3600 and their different carrying capacities...if you add the dry axle weight and the carrying capacity, they each equal 12,000...the GAWR. The dry axle weights, which are 8165/8595/10,125 respectively are the big difference.

Re the gel coat...as was mentioned earlier on the forum, the basic fiberglass package is 400 the hi gloss gel coat is 200 = 600 total.

You can always call Keystone...I've talked to them twice, very nice, professional and helpful.

Wrenchtraveller · 06-24-2006, 04:03 PM

Steve I am curious why you feel the Montana's weights are confusing.
My 06 2955RL has a GVWR of 12140 pounds and I have 5080 pound axles. these figures are from the sticker on the side of my Montana. That means the most I should put on my axles are 10160 pounds which is hard to do as anything ahead of the wheels adds to the pin weight.
As mentioned in my other posts, I weighed my unit at a government weigh scale on day 44 of my trip. I was loaded to the hilt with even my fresh water tank full and lots of heavy stuff in the basement. I have double pane windows but no gel coat. I only had 9700 pounds on the trailer axles and 2600 pounds on the pin for a total of 12300 so yes I was 160 pounds over my Montanas GVWR. I could have dumped half my fresh water and been spot on.
The good news was my truck's GVW was only 11080, under my 11200 GVWR.
My combined was 20780 ( 11080 plus 9700 = 20780 ) My truck has a 21000 GCWR so again I am fine.

I live in British Columbia and our Provincial car insurance has stated that if we are in an accident that could have been caused by a TV that is overweight, our insurance is void. I have worked 40 years to accumulate what Donald Trump would consider pocket change but it is too much for me to gamble with so I will never own another overweight RV rig in my lifetime. I am very pleased that my weights are all legal and I think there are a lot of Montana owners out there that would be surprized how much over their legal weight they are. Comfort zones don't mean squat , that little sticker on the driver's door jamb is what matters. RV makers have never been very accurate with the weights on their brochures and not too long ago one of the Forest River lines of Fifth wheels was advertized as being designed to be towed by today's half ton pickups. This was absolutely false advertising because 1/2 tons and many 3/4 tons simply do not have the LEGAL payload to haul a larger 5th wheel.

richfaa · 06-25-2006, 02:46 AM

Sounds like Steve is saying the brochures are confusing and they are., The Montanas weigh what they weigh. Check.out the stated length on your unit then put a tape measure to it???As far as weights go we can Discuss the subject all day then we individually decide what we choose to do and will justify that decision.I am with Wrenchtraveller on the weight issue..I CHOOSE to be legal in all respects.. That is why we are not pulling the Teton Royal, Sundance 39...15,265 Dry..GVWR 20K..(what a camper)

Bill Frisbee · 06-25-2006, 03:26 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller

our Provincial car insurance has stated that if we are in an accident that could have been caused by a TV that is overweight, our insurance is void.

Don ...

I am curious about this statement. Are there any specific guidelines or procedures in your insurance law that protect the policy holder? It sounds to me like a claims adjuster merely has to state that the accident COULD have been caused by an overweight TV ... and the insurance company is off the hook. Is there no burden of proof that an overweight TV DID cause the accident? How does one determine, for example, if an accident resulting from a tire blow out on the TV was actually a consequence of the TV being 100 lbs overweight rather than a defective tire? How does one determine if an accident caused by a reflexive manoeuvre to avoid a deer could have been avoided if the TV was under its GVWR by 50 lbs rather than over its GVWR by 50 lbs? In terms of defending one's financial future, it sounds like the law requires a policy holder to prove that his/her TV COULD NOT have been overweight prior to the accident. "Proving a negative" is a tough standard!

BTW, I am not arguing against staying within weight limits or trying to rationalize that it is ok to ignore them. As people who have read any of my previous posts on this issue will know, I am only slightly paranoid about staying within legal guidelines.

Bill

Wrenchtraveller · 06-25-2006, 04:57 AM

It could be as simple as rear ending someone and being overweight effects your brakes big time.
Anyway why would someone be concerned about Montana's weight guidelines when they choose to ignore Ford weight guidelines. Throw another 1000 pounds in the Monty if your comfortable.

Also we are not talking about 100 or so pounds. My set up is legal on an 05 F350 SRW but would have overloaded my 04 F350 SRW by 1000 pounds and the pre 05 F250 8800 GVW trucks would be a whopping 2280 pounds over their legal weight. This is huge yet some people are doing it by adding air bags and feel happy as a clam about it. They can do that.

But please don't try to convince other people that it is perfectly safe to ignore weight restrictions on TVs. It is not wise or safe . This will be my last post on this and I only want to educate people about due diligence. You can not guess what your rig weighs, you have to put it on the scales. Ford makes an F450 and an F550 for a reason. I also see Chev has a sweet looking MDT out there. If you want to move a mountain, you can do it right.
If my post offends someone in any way, I apologize, but on this weight issue, I will not budge and all the big guns are on my side. Take care and be safe.

Bill Frisbee · 06-25-2006, 05:18 AM

Don ...

I don't know if your post is a response to my comments ... but nothing I said or implied suggests that ignoring weight restrictions and limits on either an RV or TV is something that I advocate, is advisable, or is the smart thing to do. See my last sentence. My only point was that the law in BC, as you described it, seems to provide the insurance industry with an easy way out of paying claims. It would appear that all they have to do is state that any given accident COULD have been caused by an overweight condition. No proof that an overweight condition actually DID cause the accident seems to be necessary. That does not sound like "insurance" to me ... but what do I know?

My apologies if you find the question offensive.

Bill

Wrenchtraveller · 06-25-2006, 06:17 AM

Bill, after re reading my posts it does sound like I was in disagreement with you. That was not my intent and I apologize to you. As for the insurance company looking for an out, your are correct and so is everyone these days in our sue happy times. Even at work we are trained extensively at safety issues, fall arrest, confined entry, etc. etc. and more than anything it is so the employer is off the hook if we hurt ourselves. We have a thing called due dilligence and it is strictly a CYA deal. We had two workers that died in a vessel entry about 9 years ago. I was close to be fired for a small vessel entry infraction that was an honest brain fade on my part and in no way did I compromise my safety or the safety of anyone else and last week a supervisor and a worker were sent home for a vessel entry violation. The world is changing.
Take care and thanks for a chance to make things right with you. Sincerely, Don.

richfaa · 06-25-2006, 06:34 AM

Insurance companies looking for a out is correct.We had a incident where we moved our camper out of a area that was in the path of a tornado warning and indeed where we were suffered damage..however we moved the camper to a area where it suffered limb damage 1400.00 $ worth) The ins company ruled me "at fault" because had I not moved it that particular limb would not have caused damage to the camper . The fact that it most likely would have been destroyed made no difference My actions(moving the camper) caused the damage....At fault. They admitted that had I left it where it was any damage that MAY have occured would have been paid..no question.. That's how Ins companies work..

sreigle · 06-26-2006, 05:03 PM

Don, as Rich said, it's the brochure weights and how they are calculated I find confusing. I wonder if those numbers are based on some realistic limitations such as axle, frame, tires capacities, etc. And what are the limiting factors. How realistic are the GVWR values, for example.

Cat320, we'll be in Goshen in a couple of weeks and I plan to see if I can find out anything about how the numbers are figured, assuming we are there long enough to get that done.

Also, we put ours on a CAT scale in May of last year and again a couple of weeks ago. This time it weighed 40 lbs less than the year before. However, I was carrying about 1/3 tank of fresh water this time and 2/3 last time. So we're probably slightly heavier this year when carrying more water.

The weight on ours last year was 14,360 with 11,060 on the axles and 3,300 pinweight. Total rig is 22,920. I'll be filling the water tank in a couple of days, to 2/3 full, so we'll again be at that weeight, or more. Our 3/4 ton truck is rated for 15,400 FW towing and 23,000 GCWR, so we're within specs on both numbers. Our GVWR is 10,000 so I'm over on that. If this were the F350 with the extra leaf we'd have a GVWR of 11,400. The axle part numbers are identical on the F250 and F350 single rear wheel. The difference is the extra leaf. I have air bags so am comfortable I have the same capacity as the F350. If I had been able to find what I wanted in an F350 when we were buying I would have bought the F350. But I'm very happy with our F250.

When we weighed it I intentionally split trailer axles over two sections of the scale but that Flying J scale doesn't weigh those two sections separately. I was disappointed about that.

Don, I was told there are two factors considered in every change - price point and weight. The more expensive the equipment and amenities the higher the price and the smaller the market segment. And if weight gets too high they lose sales because many potential buyers will walk if they can't tow with their 1 ton or 3/4 ton trucks. I don't have facts, this is just what I was told. And it makes sense to me. Real wood weighs a lot. It would be nice but not if I can't tow the rig with my truck.

Wrenchtraveller · 06-27-2006, 03:26 AM

Steve correct me if I am wrong but using your figures of 11060 for the axles and 3300 for the pin puts the total weight of your Montana at 14360 pounds . If your combined weight is 22,920 then your truck is 8560 ( 14360 plus 8560 = 22920 ) that means that your trucks GVW is
11860 pounds ( 8560 plus 3300 = 11860 ) and that means even if you had an F350 SRW you would be 460 pounds overweight. Your F250 is 1860 pounds overweight.

I agree that your truck handles the weight and the F250 SRW and F350 SRW are basically the same truck but if someone really wants to keep all the numbers correct, that person wants a dually.

Please don't think I am anal about this. I choose to stay within Fords guidelines but I am not too concerned about people that don't. I just want people to realize what they are doing.
We are getting posters stating that all the Montanas are built for towing with SRW trucks and this is simply not true. The whole RV industy treads around this issue so very carefully because they don't want to lose sales. If someone is comfortable overloading his pickup, that is his perogative, but everyone doing this should be aware of it.

sreigle · 06-27-2006, 09:57 AM

Don, you are correct. The truck numbers are with both of us onboard, full diesel, full cross-bed toolbox, hitch, all the gear we carry while traveling, etc. To be within the specs I'd have to go with a dually and I am reluctant to do that. Besides, our Montana is four years old this next month and who knows if we'll keep it or move to a new one. We'll likely keep it but you never know. The 3295RK has a very heavy pinweight so the next one might be closer to specs. Unless we keep this one.

A dually doesn't fit our lifestyle very well, thus my reluctance to go dually. For others it's fine. Since I'm within GCWR I'm not very worried about it. The brakes are designed to handle GCWR. I feel we have no safety issues that are not automatically there just by having a trailer back there. The brakes on my F250 are larger than on 2004 and earlier F350's and most other brands' 1 tons. So I don't feel there is a safety issue there. The issue would be with being over GAWR and possibly wearing out or damaging the axles or wheel bearings. At 57k miles there is no sign of that happening but it is always a possibility. With our '03 F350 SRW we were over the 20,000 lb. GCWR and that worried me. This F250 has GCWR of 23,000 lbs and we're within that, though barely.

As with everything else, this is just my opinion and everyone else should take it only as input and make the decisions they are most comfortable with.

Don, I appreciate your approach to this. Intelligent discussion with realization that one's own opinion may not be shared by everyone else and that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. Nice to see.

Cat320 · 06-27-2006, 02:58 PM

I'm sorry guys, I was going to stay out of this, but I can't. Nobody should advocate towing over weight...makes no difference that you've "Been doing it for years and never had a problem," or that "It tows great, plenty of power," or "This set up works for me and I'm happy with it," or "I don't want to buy a new truck now." To use an analogy, all boats below a certain length have a Coast Guard placard (corresponds to our truck's GVWR) that states the number of passengers and/or maximum weight than can be in the boat. If a boater decided to overload his boat, go out in a large body of water, something happens to the boat and everybody drowns...that's his business if he wants to kill his family and/or friends, it does not affect the rest of us. Our vehicles are different, if we overload our trucks, go out and have a catastrophic accident, that accident is going to happen on a public road, with lots of other people around...and they will get hurt, too. So the 'excuses/reasons' above don't work, even the old stand by that "This set up works for me....." The rest of us do not care that you are happy with it and it works for you, as long as you are out there with us on the road, it's our business, too. We all know that the mechanical engineers that make these trucks and put the GVWR on them are making that number as high as they can so as to keep up with the competition. The absolute bottom line is the number on the sticker for the GVWR...saying a 2500 is the same as a srw 3500 is the same as an older 3500, etc, is just plain not true...read the sticker, it's all that counts.

The vast majority of TV questions involve, the areas of "Can I tow a certain 5er with a certain truck." It does not even occur to new RVers that the weight in the truck or the truck's GVWR are issues, all they think about is 'can I tow it.' New RVers come to this forum and ask questions in an attempt to educate themselves. We owe it to them to tell them the truth and not advocate or espouse a position that is in violation of the law, good sense and reasonableness.

I do not want a dually. Big, heavy, poorer gas mileage, costs more, can't park it, can't go thru all the drive thrus, can't get it in the garage, etc, however, regular readers will recall that one reason I joined this forum to find out what everybody was using to pull their Montanas. For seveal months, I did an in depth study of weights and pickups...guarantee I know more about them than most salesmen...bottom line is it takes a dually to pull most Montanas and stay within the truck's GVWR. So I either get a dually or a different (and smaller 5er). DW liked the Montana...therefore, I ordered a dually.

Okay, off the soap box...I need an adult beverage!

Got my adult beverage, and upon rereading and editing this post, it sounds a bit harsh. It is certainly not meant or intended to be harsh nor is it meant to irritate or aggravate any of the good folks on the forum. But as Sgt Joe Friday (yes, I'm that old) used to say, "Just the facts ma'am." These are the facts, we might not like them, but they are what they are and we have to live with them.

richfaa · 06-27-2006, 03:43 PM

That is a great post Cat320 And I for one totally agree with you.I also believe that when a person asks a question they should get a honest objective non biased answer.However , in most cases that does not happen.Again it is a matter of choice..My choice , your choice and others was to stay legal in all respects even if it involved compromise..and it did.I did not choose a one ton dually..my choice of Campers did..We are all responsible adults here we know what we are doing and we know and accept the risks..we should not however suggest that these risks are acceptable for others..Steve.S for example understands the risks, accepts them and notes that this is his opinion only..that is the way it should be.This subject has been beat to death on this forum and nothing will change..As a side note..I actually got into hot water when I was selling campers at the RV shows by telling the prospective buyer they did not have enough truck to tow the unit they were looking to buy..I was told..Let them find out for themselves. Don't let that happen on this forum...

Montana Sky · 06-27-2006, 04:32 PM

I ran my truck and coach across a weigh station a few weeks ago, while they were busy as all can be, they allowed me to run my truck and coach across the scales. I do not have the exact numbers for each axle but here is what they yelled out to me. On the truck is 9,193 lbs (GVWR is 9,200 lbs) I AM WITHIN THE GVWR. On the coach I had 11,960 on the axles. This gives me a CGVWR of 21,153 (CGVWR is 22,000 lbs) Thus I am within ALL legal weight limits of the truck and coach. I am mistified by those who say you cannot "safely" or legally tow a 5th wheel coach with a single rear wheel truck?? As long as you are within the carrying capacities of the tires, axles, truck, I see no reason you cannot. With the proof from the state dot scale, and the solid platform my truck has proven to be, I have to disagree with all the dually owners out there that time and time again, continue to accuse SRW truck owners of being unsafe and illegal. I ask what are your grounds/reasons for making such a statment? Each has to choose the best truck for their own needs.

dsprik · 06-27-2006, 06:58 PM

I think everyone knows where everyone else stands on this issue. It's not like someone is going to read a post on here and then say, "OMG!!! I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!! I'm selling my truck immediately and changing my ways!" (either upsizing OR downsizing)

I don't know, maybe someone did that once, but I wouldn't bet on it... (Wait wasn't there someone once that asked about their F150? He changed his mind... So I stand corrected)

Everyone has their reasons for driving/towing with what they have. There are SO many factors that are different in each of our lives. I think that posting on this issues on MOC is a lot more civil than ANYWHERE else - period.

However, no one is going to change their mind - I don't think... JMHO. Did I mention that I love you all???

*On Edit~ Also, it might help if this subject was banned after "cocktail hour" kicks in. Bar fights come to mind from my younger days. As my wife said once after I said something stupid after a few cold ones, "How could you have said that???" My brilliant, fogged up mind (and mouth) replied calmly, "Alcohol helps."

Guys have a tendency to get carried away with these types of subject matter. Maybe we should just let the women discuss this topic. No wait... isn't there something called "Mud Wrestling???" Never mind...

steves · 06-28-2006, 02:12 AM

Well guys, my hats off to you for all your research you have done and I'm sure there are situations that people are towing over weight limits. I would like to clarify and disagree with the statement that only a dually can safely tow a Montana.
I had my rig weighed professionally at the "Rally" in Daytona this year under a fully loaded condition (extended stay and tanks full after 6 days of dry camping) and my SRW F350 was under GVWR, GCWR and individual axle load ratings. If anyone wants the numbers send me an email and I'll send you the complete weight document.

richfaa · 06-28-2006, 02:32 AM

As cat320 stated .. "it takes a dually to pull Most Montana's and stay within the truck's GVWR. So I either get a dually or a different (and smaller 5er). DW liked the Montana...therefore, I ordered a dually"... Emphasis om "most" If your scale numbers are within the stated Truck numbers you are OK..no matter what you are pulling.What some of use are saying here is that if asked the question lets give a honest answer.If we are over the weight limits and we know it we should not justify being over the limits.Just say..here is what I have, here is what I pull and I am xxxx over this or that limit.. That is what the question asker wants to know.This forum gave me the information I needed to choose the proper truck for my camper choice.We were not sure which Model Montana we would end up with but we knew it would be one of the bigger ones so we got the truck that covered all models..As we said..we did not choose the dually..our choice of camper did. Note... I pulled our previous TT and it was in excess of the weight limitations of our Chevy truck.. Had air bags, heavy duty shocks the whole 9 yards..When I bought the camper and truck we were not weight literate..we pulled it for 10 years "and never had a problem" Except for the time we had to do a drop your socks stop and had to steer off the road..lucky the folks had a really long front yard and we got the thing stopped before we wiped out the house. Toasted the brakes..we have learned a lot since then..

Wrenchtraveller · 06-28-2006, 03:40 AM

I also am happy everyone is getting along and enjoying this topic. I love SRW trucks and I do travel heavy so for me the 2955RL was as big as I could go.

Also, Chev trucks are lighter than Fords so they do have a bigger payload and can take more Pin weight. I think a 9200 GVWR Chev 2500 HD will have as big a payload as a 9900 GVWR F350 SRW Ford.

In my case I am so glad Ford raised my 05 F350 SRW GVWR to 11200 pounds or else I would have had to go dually even for my 2955RL but again this was my weight requirements.

CountryGuy · 06-28-2006, 03:43 AM

I rarely get into this what size truck stuff, cause Al is the one that knows the numbers and all that. I do know that we pulled our 30 ft TT for a number of years with trucks/vans that were not "HEFTY" enough and that he said this time he was gonna have TRUCK!!!!

. Like Rich, our decision was based on the coach we were contemplating and then we matched the truck to it.

Next, we all need to remember that a 2000 truck stated to be a 350 or 3500, etc. is not rated the same as a 2005 350 or 3500. Those numbers change all the time, of that I am aware. So, we need to be careful not to compare a 2000 and a 2005 truck, eh??

Next, even tho we are very happy with our choice, duelly and all, Al has said a number of times how much he would like to hook Tana up to a single real wheel truck and give her a test haul. We love what we consider to be the stable ride of the "D". But, as we have never hauled her with a "S", we are still curious.

Much of this, our choices, each of us, comes down to comfort zones, are you comfortable driving a "D", are you comfortable with the ratings your truck has, are you comfortable with the diesel vs the gas??

Will our choices and comfort zones change, most likely. That is why there are still truck dealers all over this glorious USA selling trucks!

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