Hydraulic Pump Breaker Upgrade

[gjennings]

Mine doesn’t have the inline fuse either. It goes just like your one part of drawing. Battery, 150AMP Breaker, Battery ShutOff, then up and out to the other side to a 1000 Watt inverter.

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

As Carl pointed out my sketch is wrong. I did it by looking at some pics I took and I mistook the red wire routing. Sorry. I will correct that when I get back from our trip.

The inverter is 150 watt not amps. I seem to be missing the in line fuse for the inverter. Also with the rats nest of wires on those two CBs I do not see a clear way to wire in an 80 amp CB for the pump.

[Carl n Susan]

I am assuming that long white Magnum thing on the left is a fuse not a circuit breaker?

[gjennings]

You would be correct on that.

Originally Posted by carl n susan

I am assuming that long white Magnum thing on the left is a fuse not a circuit breaker?

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

........
Carl Youngren has been helping me figure this out via some back and forth emails. I did this sketch (attached) of the spidersweb of wire in my front compartment. I am not sure how or where I would install an 80 amp CB on the stuff that feeds the hydraulic pump. Forgive the "technical terms" such as "big red wire" or "small white wire".

Mike - I have a question about your diagram and the picture of your actual wiring you posted.

In the wiring picture I see a large red wire to the left side (what you called the silver pole) of the left breaker (your B breaker). And I see a large red wire to the left side (what you called the copper pole) of the right breaker (your C breaker). I also see those two large red wires crossing as they dip behind the battery.

I am sure you traced it accurately. But I must ask. Are you sure the large red wire on the B breaker is really the one from the battery? If the battery wire were actually the one to the copper post on the C breaker, it would be correct and be providing protection for the pump. Reason I ask is that Carl's picture is very similar to yours, but he labels the wire on the right side breaker as from the battery. And the one on the left side breaker as to the converter. If your diagram is accurate for your actual wiring, it may be a simple as swapping those two large red wires.

[Mikendebbie]

My sketch is wrong - carl suggested tracing the wires (not going off of the pics i took) and i need to correct my sketch!

[Carl n Susan]

The wiring for the main power systems is correct in my belief. The diagram not so much. Mike's pictures here are just a subset of the ones he took. You are right, the main wire from the battery is hard to see in the pics. If it were as Mike's diagram shows, there is no way to get power to the fuse panel (among other things). Just to be sure Montana hasn't changed the standard wiring, I went to my dealer and looked at 4-5 Montana wiring systems. They still run it the same with the battery going to the right hand CB ("C" in the diagram).

What is really weird and the genesis of the confusion, is Montana using a resetible 50 amp CB for the inverter. They must have been out of the Magnum fuses and grabbed what they had so they could go milk the cows. Quality Control at its finest.

[Mikendebbie]

Update: I stopped into my dealer in Burleson TX on our way to Oklahoma this morning.
Service lady had no idea what a magnum in line fuse was...could not find one googling the internet...she had never seen one...did not know when the started putting them in Montana’s...but said they have not had any service requests to fix a circuit breaker on an inverter...so it must not be a problem.

My inverter has worked flawlessly for 2 days. Maybe I don’t have a problem. Hydraulic system has worked like a charm. Maybe if it ain’t broke I need to quit worrying about it and count my lucky stars.

I do appreciate all the help in this thread - good questions and comments - (especially extra help from Carl). I understand the thing a lot better now!

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

Update: I stopped into my dealer in Burleson TX on our way to Oklahoma this morning.
Service lady had no idea what a magnum in line fuse was...could not find one googling the internet...she had never seen one...did not know when the started putting them in Montana’s...but said they have not had any service requests to fix a circuit breaker on an inverter...so it must not be a problem.
.......

Here you go.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Energy.../dp/B00OM9AE4W

Magnum Energy also makes inverters. So maybe those fuses are paired with Magnum Energy inverters. Doesn’t seem like an auto reset breaker would be appropriate for that application.

[Mikendebbie]

BB - there is a chart in a post above and I think indicates my CSW 1012 needs 150 amp or smaller fuse. Am I reading the chart correct? The link you sent was a 300 amp.

[BB_TX]

Actually the link is for a 400 amp. But in the description it says they are available in 125, 200, 300, and 400 amp.

[Mikendebbie]

Thank you!

[Arkware]

My 2015 rig came with a 150 amp auto reset CB for the WFCO 1000w inverter. Just like the 80 amp CB we're using for the hydraulic pump upgrade.

[BB_TX]

An auto reset circuit breaker sounds like a sophisticated protection device. In reality it is about as cheap and low tech as could possibly be. It is nothing more than a strip of bi-metal with an electrical contact on one end. Upon overcurrent, the bi-metal heats, bends, opens the contact, cools, closes the contact, and repeats each time there is too much current. Which makes me wonder why it would be appropriate for protection for an inverter.


For the slide motor, the circuit is only energized for the short time while you are holding the switch to move the slides in or out. But something like the inverter could be energized continuously. That means if an inverter began drawing too much current it would cause the auto reset circuit breaker to open and stop current flow. But as soon as the breaker cooled (5-10 seconds), it would close the circuit again and re-energize the inverter. Then it would overheat and open, cool again and close, overheat and open, etc. And if the overcurrent were also causing overheating in the failing device it could lead to it burning up. A manual reset circuit breaker would seem far more appropriate than the auto reset. But maybe that is just my little brain overthinking it. Anyway, fun to think about.


Pic below is of my failed pump auto reset circuit breaker of years ago. You can see the burned contact from repeated opening and closing and the resulting arcing.

[ChuckS]

I’d have to have the inverter FUSED like the install manual depicts. With a resettable breaker how would you know you’ve got an overcurrent issue until too late ?

Resettable breakers are great when used in the right application. The inverter main DC feed line ain’t it

[gjennings]

Wondering why the factory or dealer who ever installs that does install it per the manual? It Showa fuse and then a breaker then to the inverter. Mine has the 150AMP breaker but no in-line fuse.

[BB_TX]

For you guys (and girls) going to the rally, this would be a good opportunity to ask the question to a Keystone rep for a reason this is a good application for an auto reset circuit breaker. With emphasis on an application where power is continuous and the auto reset breaker could cycle between trip and reset continuously under an overload condition.

And the answer should come from one of their engineers, not a sales rep or PR person.

[glendodom]

It is simply amazing how many variations of fuse/breakers are installed from the Montana factory? Really shows how much quality control is going on within the Montana assembly process!

My unit was purchased at a Camping World store. When I initially had the slide breaker problems they upgraded my breaker from a 25 amp to a 50 amp as I was told. Then later I upgraded it myself to an 80 amp but in the end only to find out even Camping World has upgraded the inverter breaker line versus the pump line. Makes one wonder who is on first and who is on ??

[goodellj]

Originally Posted by glendodom

I have a 2018 3721RL with the inverter for the refrigerator.

Earlier back in the winter months I was having issues with the slides and level-up system stopping and basically rebooting. Based on Lippert guidance (attached) it advised upgrading the 50 amp breaker to an 80 amp. I did so but continued having issues.

I now have an inverter issue whereas it has evidently blown an internal fuse according to the Magnum Dimension Tech. In my research now in chasing wires, I have figured out my unit's wiring to the inverter comes off of the battery through a breaker, thru a cutoff switch direct to the inverter.

The breaker I upgraded was to the inverter not the hydraulic pump since the picture showed a Busman breaker that looks identical to the one going to the inverter.

Now I am confused, the breaker to the inverter was originally a 50 and the manual states not to exceed 150 amp, so I guess the 80 I put in is ok for the inverter? Can anyone give me a good part of the breaker for the pump or is it the same type of breaker that is used on the inverter line? Thanks

I have read many posts on the subject of replacing the 50A breaker with an 80A, and this the first I have seen a Lippert recommendation for replacement or a Lippert technical bulletin on the subject. Thanks for the info.

I have always thought that no matter the qualifications of the person recommending, it would be a BAD IDEA to replace a factory OEM 50A breaker with a larger one just because 'it trips too often'. My Lippert leveling system breaker will often trip several times when retracting and even though it is annoying, I wasn't too worried because the breaker was doing it's job. I will take another look and consider replacing.

[goodellj]

I always thought it was a BAD IDEA to replace the 50A OEM breaker with a larger one 'because it trips too often', regardless of the expertise or qualifications of the person recommending. This is first time I have read that Lippert recommends this and backs it up with a technical bulletin.

My Lippert leveling system will trip the breaker several times when retracting and even though this is annoying, I wasn't worried because I understood what was happening and it just takes a little longer. I will take another look and consider swapping out the breaker.

[ChuckS]

Not a bad idea at all to upgrade the Lippert hyd pump auto reset breaker to 80 amps. The hyd pump motor will often pull well over 70 amps when running pump motor. Especially in colder weather. The only two cables to look at are the one feeding from battery to breaker and breaker to dual polarity solenoid on pump motor.

The builders use the cheapest crap on hand when assembling ... they buy the 50 amp auto reset breakers by the foot locker full. Upgrade to an 80 amp otherwise sooner or later that arcing 50 amp breaker will fail at the most inopportune time in the middle of nowhere