Shackle maintenace required, per the manual - Montana Owners Club

sreigle · 05-21-2005, 12:52 PM

Some of you are aware we've had problems with the shackles on our Montana. Others of you have, as well. I recently had an email conversation with Jeff Rank about this. For those not aware, Jeff is top dog at Montana, VP for Thor over the Montana Division.

Jeff pointed out the manual says we're supposed to perform preventive maintenance on these shackles. I was not aware of that and asked for specifics so I could post this info. The following is the email from Jeff:
---------------
According to the Owner’s Manual on Leaf Spring Suspensions:

“All suspension components should be visually inspected at least every 6,000 miles or 6 months. Check for loose fasteners and torque to proper values. “

A separate chart states that the Shoulder Bolt and U-Bolt should be torqued to a minium of 30 Ft. Lbs.

Unfortunately, most customers do not perform this maintenance which could lead to the elongated wear found on the Shackle Links.

Thanks for offering to post this. Perhaps it will give increased awareness to this maintenance.

Jeff
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Please note that, in my opinion, "could" does not mean this is the only reason for the failures but it could be a major contributor in many cases. I will be checking this per the manual in the future. Even though I read all the manuals shortly after delivery, I somehow managed to miss this one.

CountryGuy · 05-21-2005, 12:57 PM

Thanks Steve for posting this

And, glad your run to Goshen was event LESS.

Carol

Wordsmith · 05-21-2005, 03:16 PM

Thanks for the info, and also glad that you made it to Goshen with no incidents!

I tell you, though, there is so much in manuals that it is easy to overlook or forget some of it, and let’s face it, they are not the most entertaining of reads!

azstar · 05-21-2005, 03:47 PM

Steve,

We too are glad you made it without any problems and thanks for the info.

The answer you got from Jeff although interesting it's not in my opinion very usefull.

All of us that have reworked our Rigs. were surprised to see all the damage that wasn't visible without a disassembly.

As for the Torque spec. it has minimal if any impact on this problem. I can assure you mine were at at least 30 Ft. Lbs. it took an Air Wrench set somewhere between "Stun" and "Kill" to break them loose. We are torquing against the sholder of the shackle bolts. We are not torquing to establish a clamping force, otherwise the shackles wouldn't be free to pivot as needed.

Their going to have to come up with a better answer than that.

Jeff, may be a great Guy but he is really reaching here.

Glad your safe

lightningjack11 · 05-21-2005, 04:08 PM

Steve, happy you made it ok. I was a little worried and glad you posted in quickly.

I looked it up and it is on page 30 of ALKO Manual including the statment and Torque chart. But there is no mention of checking this in the Keystone manual under SUSPENSION. They check Tires,Wheel Bearings and Brakes.

I hope this is not Jeff's total answer to this problem. In fact most owners appear to catching the shackle problem before the wheels come off. MOC members have the advantage of knowing there is a real problem here. INSPECTIONS are great and should always be done. I check the heck out of mine because I know trailers are not under the same safety rules as vehicles so I check the trailer much more.

Surely Keystone knows by now the need to strengthen the shackles.

At the last Tampa RV show I talked with Mor-ryde and I got the impression that Montanas might be using the stronger suspension in the future. I sure hope they do it before I upgrade.

Guess we have to wait and see. In the meantime Montana owners or owners of other trailers should check, check and re-check those shackles before, after, and during a trip.

jrgwdenner · 05-21-2005, 05:12 PM

Steve, glad to hear that you and Vicki arrived safely in Goshen. Hope all your fixes go smoothly and you can accomplish all that you had on your list.

Glen took the air compressor back to Lowe's today and bought one from Sears. He was using it today and seemed pleased with it's performance.

Have a great stay in Goshen.

DHenry · 05-21-2005, 06:58 PM

Steve, thanks for the update. Looks like this is an important maintance item that we all should keep an eye on.

sreigle · 05-21-2005, 07:29 PM

Thanks, everyone. Tom, I also tonight found it in my Alko manual but not in the Keystone manual. This might be a good addition to the Keystone manual.

I don't know what else is taking place at Keystone regarding the shackles. I do know that Jeff has been provided with pictures and other information, both from me and from others. Since this is such a safety issue I'd bet there are conversations going on about this. Changes of this type probably do not happen overnight, for a number of reasons. I am pleased Jeff continues to take an interest in this topic and am confident this is not the end of it. Maybe I'm too optimistic or naive but I don't think so. I am glad we were able to get to Goshen without having to swap out a link or even attempt to tighten the bolts. This way maybe Keystone can see for themselves whether the bolts have loosened or the elongation is from other causes (which is what I suspect). You can bet I'll be checking these frequently in the future.

padredw · 05-22-2005, 03:26 AM

The "Manual", in my opinion, is one of the weakest aspects of Montana ownership. Even my little ol' Prowler had a better manual. Again, an opinion, the quote from Jeff and the manual seems more designed to protect the company against liability than to be useful to the owner.

Maybe I'm wrong. One can always hope for the best.

lightningjack11 · 05-22-2005, 04:30 AM

azstar,

Page 30 of the Alko Manual and the chart that Jeff refers to states the "Spring Eye Bolt", "Shackle Bolt", and "Equalizer Bolt' must be able to move freely. "Tighten to snug fit only"

I hope no one is applying torque to these bolts. The torque values are for the U Bolts and Shoulder Bolts only.

Anyone know where the shoulder bolt is? I don't see one on my rig.

-----

Just a thought. Keystone performed the 00-8 Service Advisory on my rig which re-enforces the spring hangers and limits any flex. Since I have neglible wear on my shackles after more that 30000 I just wonder if this strengthening could provide a solution. Also I never had an alignment problem. The large steel re-eforcement bars seem to protect the axle from bending. The only drawback is increased weight. Lots of steel was added.

RADHAZJOE · 05-22-2005, 05:08 AM

Help.

What are the shackles, ubolts, etc. mentioned above?
Thanks.

patodonn · 05-22-2005, 05:18 AM

Steve (and others): I also noted the Al-Ko maintenance spec that "Shackle Bolt, and "Equalizer Bolt must be able to move freely. Tighten to snug fit only". That is certainly not mentioned in the Keystone Manual, nor is there an inspection requirement in Keystone's book. Which is correct? Is Jeff saying that there should be 30 ft# of torque on the shackle bolts? Not more? Not less? Also, is there any lubrication mention for the Al-Ko shackles? Don't think so. Should there be? Maybe, especially if not more than 30 ft # of torque is specified for the bolts.

When we had our shackles replaced, the tech had to use "extreme force" (maybe an air chisel) to get one of the bolts off. Might want to have Jeff emphasizes to the QA folks to inspect this specific assembly step. Air hammer to "stun" (liked that one!!) is not the answer.

Best,

lightningjack11 · 05-22-2005, 06:16 AM

Patodon,

I think they are just locknuts that become frozen in place. Mine look like they will be hard to get off. I will just soak them in WD-40 overnight before I put the new kit on.

Gin and I

Go to page 30 of the ALKO Manual. If you don't have one Alko has been providing them for free by calling Chris Fann at 574-294-6651 or request one at the web site. www.al-kousa.com

Just checked. You can now download a copy of the Manual plus all of the catalogs.

RADHAZJOE · 05-22-2005, 07:04 AM

Thanks.
I just downloaded and read the manual. All is clear. Seems that for an extrra dollar they could have installed heavier shackles.

Our 5er is just 3 mo old and I will be checking quarterly.

thanks again.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by lightningjack11

Patodon,

I think they are just locknuts that become frozen in place. Mine look like they will be hard to get off. I will just soak them in WD-40 overnight before I put the new kit on.

Gin and I

Go to page 30 of the ALKO Manual. If you don't have one Alko has been providing them for free by calling Chris Fann at 574-294-6651 or request one at the web site. www.al-kousa.com

Just checked. You can now download a copy of the Manual plus all of the catalogs.

drhowell · 05-23-2005, 04:22 AM

Steve, Thank you for communicating with Jeff about the shackle problems. I have to disagree with Jeff's response that checking and tightening the bolts will solve the problem or at least slow it down. The problem is not loose bolts, that is the symptom. When I changed my shackles I found the nylon bushings were worn clear through on the shackle bolts that had elongated holes. On the shackle bolts that did not show wear the nylon bushings were thin but no metal to metal contact. The nylon bushings are the only lubrication between the metal spring eye and the metal shackle bolt. Once that nylon is gone and you have metal to metal something has to give. At that point tightening the bolts will not prevent the link wear. You can not see the nylon bushings by visually inspecting the suspension.

Has anyone checked the suggested maximum load for the nylon bushings type suspensions? The axles may have 6000 lb ratings but the suspension is not designed for continuous operation at those loads. These are manufactured home axles that are designed to make one road trip from the factory to the house pad. I have used these recycled axles for years to build utility and car hauling trailers. The nylon bushings do not hold up under heavy use!

Montana_738 · 05-23-2005, 05:05 AM

Glad you made it safe Steve.

Bill

richfaa · 05-23-2005, 06:25 AM

Note that the statement referenced by Jeff is actually TWO seperate statements.

1. All suspension components should be visually checked every 6 months or 6,000 miles(period)
2.Check for loose fasteners and torque to proper Value.

That is TWO separate preventative maint tasks and if adhered to would greatly reduce or eliminate the problem.IMHO.

Montana_2785 · 05-23-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Note that the statement referenced by Jeff is actually TWO seperate statements.

1. All suspension components should be visually checked every 6 months or 6,000 miles(period)
2.Check for loose fasteners and torque to proper Value.

That is TWO separate preventative maint tasks and if adhered to would greatly reduce or eliminate the problem.IMHO.

This is all well and good but my experience with trailer suspension hardware shows that Jeff is blowing at least some smoke in my Not-So-Humble-Opinion.

After upgrading my old TT with the heavier hardware and greasable bolts, I never had any further problem and I didn't give the any more maintenance than I did before with the exception of keeping the bolts greased. BTW: I also had a hole in the spring hanger itself get wallowed out oversized and had to be fixed. They arn't any thicker than the "standard" shackles.

Don't forget to check the hangers themselves when you check the rest of the hanger hardware.

I flatly think that the "standard" thickness shackles are simply not strong enough and the nylon bushings are demonstrably not able to hold up under heavy use. If you stayed with nylon bushings and replaced when inspections showed they were wearing out, you would end up replacing them lots of times. That isn't a solution, it is a bandaid.

Bottom line: The "standard" hanger hardware simply isn't meaty enough for heavy use.

Period.

Eric

azstar · 05-23-2005, 08:46 AM

Rich,

In no way will a "Visual Inspection" change anything. Looking at something doesn't change the way it wears. And if some of the bolts are loose it's already worn out.

As far as the torque spec. a person would have to break the nuts loose, clean and re-torque to have it right. Remember when torquing the nuts they are going up against the shoulder on the bolts, they are not clamping anything. This is why Shoulder Bolts are designed the way they are. They aren't supposed to be used for clamping anything. They are designed to hold a pivoting assembly together without interfering with the pivoting action.

Bottom line here is the shackle system we have on our Montana/Mountaineer's was UNDER DESIGNED.

"And that's the name of that Tune"

HamRad · 05-23-2005, 10:10 AM

While inspection is a valuable thing to do it is NOT the answer for the problem with the shackles. As several folks have already pointed out the current shackles simply are not designed for the loads that are present on the Montanas. All of my nylon bushings were worn to one degree or another. Simply replacing the worn out stuff with the standard would have been an exercise in futility.

I don't blame Jeff for saying what he did but it does appear to simply be a CYA type exercise. These rigs require a heavier shackle arrangement. No amount of maintenance would have prevented my shackles from doing what they did. NONE of my bolts were loose. It took considerable force to remove ALL of them.

Certainly inspect them often but do NOT rely on a visual assessment to determine the state of wear. The true condition of wear is often not easily visible until approaching the breaking point.

If Montana will not replace them then simply bite the bullet and fork over the $150 bucks or so and replace them with the heavy duty ones. I travel much easier knowing that I have fixed them properly. By the way I did not ask Montana to bear the cost of my replacement but I would encourage them to do the right thing and put on the heavy duty stuff to begin with. It's too important not to do so. I am surprised that someone has not gotten hurt before this time because of the shackles.

OK.... I'll get off my soap box now. :-)

HamRad

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