Movement between Pinbox and front Cap - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

mobilrvn · 11-06-2005, 03:46 PM

We had to tow ours about 1600 miles total to a dealer who would look at it and attempted to fix it and then on to Goshen to have the factory fix it. We had a broken frame on our previous 5W---don't we have all the luck?--and must have towed it over 30,000 miles before the problem was ultimately fixed, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Having said that, at the end of each day we towed the Montana to get it fixed, we would discover one or two new things that had broken or come apart. By the time we got to the factory, we had 48 items to be repaired besides the frame flex problem.

Keystone has a retro fit to fix the problem, although it didn't work for us. It involves adding more metal and bracing plus more welding. The front cap has to come off. With ours after the flexing started, metal fatigue caused the metal strip on the right front rail on which the wall rides to fail and then it transfered back to the outriggers above the wheels causing them to fail on both sides. This caused walls to come apart like stretched pizza dough, cupboards to sag and the countertop to crack among other things.

sreigle · 11-07-2005, 02:00 PM

I have to admit we towed our several thousand miles with this problem but didn't realize the problem for what it was until very late in the game. Besides the molding moving, we also started noticing the bedroom dresser dropping from the caulk line along the closet wall when hitched and back in normal position when unhitched. That's when I contacted Keystone. They did a very good fix on it. No problem since.

Please don't take the above to mean I think it's safe to tow a long distance with this problem. I am just relating how it worked out for us.

hazmic · 11-20-2005, 02:37 PM

A frame shop in our area told me to check mine by using a framing square. Put the square across the plate on the pin box and the long end up to the cap. put a mark [pencil] on the cap. Hook up to TV. Bring up the landing gear so the weight is on the pin box. If the measurement is more then 1/4 inch the frame is breaking up and needs to be repaired ASAP. This is a lippert problem and not Keystone. If you possibly can,install a air pin box. It removes the jarring that is transmitted from the TV to the trailer. We have such smooth roads now days. To repair this the skin by the hitch needs to be removed and the frame repaired. He said to check this 2 times a year.

8.1al · 11-21-2005, 08:25 AM

When I do this my pinbox flexes up 7/8 of an inch. I asked Keystone if this was normal and the only response I could get was "Take it to a dealer" Dealer said "oh, that's OK". So just who do you believe?

sreigle · 11-21-2005, 12:15 PM

Charlie, I'd try another dealer and if they say the same ask them to call Keystone. Or call Keystone with the 7/8 inch info and tell them what the dealer said.

Hope all is well with you and Nila. We enjoyed meeting you folks at the rally.

8.1al · 11-22-2005, 04:07 PM

Steve,
We will be taking our unit in next month for the lug nut recall and will have them take another look at it then. We just left Palm Springs after 2 weeks working with Habitat for Humanity and are now in Las Vegas.

Parrothead · 11-22-2005, 07:23 PM

Charlie & Nila
We didn't know you were in Palm Springs! That is only 30-40 miles from us. Sorry we missed you.
Happy trails..................

8.1al · 11-28-2005, 05:58 AM

Is there anyone out there that has tried the pinbox measurements as Hazmic suggested? If so would you let me know? If not could you try it? I would really appreciate it. Yours may be doing this and you don't know it.
Charlie

Pete Hanson · 11-30-2005, 06:00 AM

Is this problem restricted to a particular model or year of manufacture, or is it across the entire Montana line?????

8.1al · 11-30-2005, 07:12 AM

Pete,
I wish I could tell you but I really don't know. Any fith wheel,regardless of manufacture, with an extended pinbox is more prone to this because they place more stress on the frame where they are attached. If you will read back just a little way you will see it is easy to check

gbroot · 11-30-2005, 11:14 AM

REF: [A frame shop in our area told me to check mine by using a framing square. Put the square across the plate on the pin box and the long end up to the cap. put a mark [pencil] on the cap. Hook up to TV. Bring up the landing gear so the weight is on the pin box. If the measurement is more then 1/4 inch the frame is breaking up and needs to be repaired ASAP.]

Hummmm......That is only going to tell you if there is movement between the pin box and the frame above that point (is the box coming loose from the frame) and not if there is movement between the upper and the lower half of the frame, which would indicate other problems. Because the upper Cap area is sort of "resting" on the pinbox I wouldn't expect to see a lot of movement with this test, and especially on the front of the Cap. However, the same method (or using a laser level) could be used to check for this movement on the bottom of frame next to the where the landing gear exits the body. Vertical movement at that point would be indicating a problem with the frame, however, some movement has to be expected due to the normal "flex" that's been mentioned before. It's too bad the factory will not give some idea of what can be expected as "normal flex" of the frame or the pinbox to the frame. I would not be surprised to see maybe a 1/2" movement when the load is transferred from the landing gear to the hitch and probably more when we're bouncing down the roads. That would be normal. I would also expect the frame to have been designed with a safety factor of 2 to 3 times the specified weight rating of the coach and some representative frames to have actually been stress tested with that kind of overload in the normal process of bringing the product to the market.
All that said, I just completed a 2700 mile trip last week and watched the "flex" between the pinbox and the underside of the Cap via the rearview mirror. It looks like 1/4 - 1/2" at the most while on good roads and maybe 3/4" on the rough spots of the highway. I'm confident at this point that is normal for my rig, but I'll also be watching for any changes as time goes on.
I too got the "see your local dealer" comment from the factory on this subject and the "that's ok" comment from the dealer! The problem seems to be a lack of common sense and a willingness to think through the problem with the customer. But then we're dealing with service Tech’s, and not design engineers at the dealer and the Tech’s only know what they are told or experience first-hand. The answers must come from the factory engineers.

hazmic · 12-02-2005, 02:13 PM

I talked to Tim and he said that if more then 1/4 inch ,yes the frame is breaking up. There is great pressure on the pin boxes. The extended ones are worse then the short ones. I can see where flex from the lower frame and the upper one are possible. I would think if there is too much movement you would be breaking the fiberglass from the movement. Could some of the movement you are seeing is the panel. All mine is is thin fiberglass. The frame shop is Truck Builders in Marion Iowa.

RADHAZJOE · 12-06-2005, 02:39 PM

Monty is in for dealer inspection on this one right now. Keystone has given them specs on what to look for, what flex is ok, but I don't know if they have a cure for the trim pieces coming unsealed from the flex. My dealer, Dixie Rv, in Newport News, VA has worked with me and I trust them. I don't think I want to pass on everthing they told me until this process is over, but will keep all posted. We pulled the unit over some pretty rough roads since we discovered the overhang flex problem, about 2400 miles. The problem did not get worse. We will see.

Montana_2130 · 12-08-2005, 03:01 PM

Just had mine fixed. There was enough flex to crack my ceiling in the bedroom. The original design was very poor and only "skip" welded. The only way to tell the true condition of the frame is to remove the skin behind the pin and do a visual inspection. I would recomend that if there is any doubt, do a visual inspection. The fix is very basic to anyone with structural knowledge, but does require some welding. We added an Trailair pin after seeing the damage caused by the rough roads. The ride is much improved. If you already have "air-shocks" this may not be necessary. Just my $.02.

Montana_5408 · 02-20-2006, 06:16 PM

On Jan 20 we left home for AZ. I noticed movement of pin upward maybe 3/4 inch. Late Saturday crossing railroad tracks near Bakersfield, CA I noticed the pin box move upward probably 2-3 inches and became alarmed. I then observed that pin box appeared to be attached to a diving board.

We stopped at an nearby RV park. kingpin was tilted upward in front. Inside closet had punched a hole in the ceiling. Dropping jacks and unhooking the pinbox leveled out. I checked the pinbox with a flashlight and found 2-3 inch cracks at the back where it was welded to the frame cross member. The next morning I dropped the vinyl cover below the bedroom. The flanges supporting the sidewalls had been tack welded to the box frame. Of the 14 welds 12 were broken allowing the sidewalls to drop below the frame 1 inch. These welds each averaged less than 1/2 inch long. Considering our tongue weight this was less than 3 1/2 inch of weld supporting 1000# when sitting unhitched.

The local RV Dealer said he knew of no problem and referred me to a utility trailer manufacturer for repairs.

Since we were stranded until our RV was fixed the Good Sam Park where we were staying recommended an independent RV service shop. Now we are jumping through the hoops of attempting to get Keystone's attention about a problem they had a responsibility to notify original owners about.

I reported the problem to the Federal NHTSA on their wep site. They can investigate and require a mandatory safety recall. All who have had a problem should file a report

HamRad · 02-21-2006, 12:03 AM

Hello Phil,
Welcome to the MOC. Sorry to hear about your trailer problem. If you've been on very long you will know that this problem has been with us for a couple of years or longer. Generally Keystone has been very good about taking care of this issue.

I live in Bakersfield and the local Montana dealer here is Stiers RV. They are well aware of the problem. They fixed mine for me. I don't know which RV dealer you talked with. Also what local shop did you end up using?

Were you stranded in Bakersfield for a whole month? And what RV park did you stay in?

I believe the MOC is trying to get a "Helping Hands" type organization set up to help out in cases just like yours! Sure would have been nice if it was already in place. It might have made things easier for you.

If you're ever in need down this way again please drop me an email or post here on the MOC. I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

Dennis

rickfox · 02-21-2006, 04:43 PM

Good Evening All,

According to Montana, for 2006, trailers longer than 34' are outfitted with the standard - 15" pin box. Shorter trailers have the longer 20" pin boxes.

Some quick math - and looking at the 2006 specs shows that the torque applied at the frame on the 2980RL is 2270# x 20" = 45400 in-pounds of torque. On the other hand, the torque applied at the frame of the 3400RL is 1975# x 15" = 29625 in-pounds. If the extended pin box were to be used on the 3400, the torque would still be less than the 2980RL at 39500 in-pounds.

There is clearly more at work here than the use of extended hitch pins or Montana and the frame maker would not be using the extended pin boxes on the 2980RL and other shorter trailers. I believe the issue is poor frame construction.

richfaa · 02-22-2006, 03:13 AM

pwabbott..see you came over for a look.There is a lot of info here about your problem and a lot of help..

steves · 02-22-2006, 04:06 AM

Dear Mr. Senderovitz,
Copy of Montana's response:

Currently any Montana or Mountaineer over 30' (models over 3000 series) have the short pin box, LIPP 1116, units less then 3000 series have the extended pin box. The model of pin box your unit came with is correct for the time when your unit was manufactured.

rickfox · 02-22-2006, 03:41 PM

Steve,

Montana CS and my dealer have both told me that Montanas over 34' have the standard pin box rather than all those over 30'. However, for the Montana, as you say, this does equate to all trailer models 3000 and above.

Again though as I mentioned above, due to their lower pin weights, many of the longer trailers in fact exert a lower torque onto the frame even when equiped with the extended pin box.

I have heard there is at least one MOC member that is associated with the frame manufacturer. I wonder if he can shed some light on the standard vs. extended pin box question.

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