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Old 07-17-2006, 12:01 PM   #21
richfaa
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Went back and looked at my post on the 3400 weight when empty. Although the kitchen sticker says 11,900lbs and we had the 2nd A/C installed and were minus a recliner, table and lamp the weight was 11,896 .We had two full Propane tanks and 2 deep cycle batteries..Keystones numbers and the sticker numbers make no sense.
 
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:22 PM   #22
David and Jo-Anna
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Rich--My recollection from reading other threads is that the 11,900# number Montana puts on the sticker inside each 3400 is a number representing "typical" options, not what options are in a particular unit. I also seem to recall people saying that during factory tours they never saw any evidence that Montana was weighing units as they came off the assembly line. Accordingly, I was assuming that the sticker weight was at best mildly informative, but that one had to get a scale reading after PDI to know what one's particular rig really weighed.

Am I off base on that?
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:19 PM   #23
Cat320
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Richfaa: "Went back and looked at my post on the 3400 weight when empty. Although the kitchen sticker says 11,900lbs and we had the 2nd A/C installed and were minus a recliner, table and lamp the weight was 11,896 .We had two full Propane tanks and 2 deep cycle batteries..Keystones numbers and the sticker numbers make no sense."

Rich...maybe I'm missing something here, but the 11900 and 11896 are nearly identical. The propane and batteries did not come from the factory, therefore are not on the sticker in the cabinet. The spec sheet that I have (2006 models "actual weights")...says 11900 is the "interior label weight." I take that to mean base weight without extras we order...2nd A/C in your case, thus the sticker will be adjusted according to what we order as options.
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Old 07-17-2006, 03:43 PM   #24
mobilrvn
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May be wrong, but my understanding of the weight sticker on the cupboard door is that is the weight for that unit with the factory installed options---this is true of all RVs. Don't know if it is a law (my guess) or an industry agreement. It will also tell you how much the water in a full tank weighs and the weigh for the propane. All of this is subtracted from the CGVW and gives you your net carrying capacity (ncc). If you add items, your ncc will be that much lower.
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Old 07-17-2006, 04:01 PM   #25
rickfox
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David and JoAnna,

JD Gallant, the one time head of the RV Consumer Group (I'm not sure he is still part of the organization) wrote a book back in 2003 titled "How to Select, Inspect, and Buy an RV (395 pages). This Group is also known as RV.ORG, and is the most prominent group that yearly "rates" the quality, value and safety of the many RV's manufactured.

In his book, he states that that for two people, the typical load carried is:

for vacationing - 1000# or 500# per person
for snowbirding - 1500#
for fulltiming - 2,000#

all of which are within the limits of the 3400. He also stated that the 2,000# figure is the most often exceeded figure, since many fulltimers tend to slowly pick up stuff they often no longer use. He stresses the idea of striving to limit the "un-needed stuff" that is often carried.

How much you will/can carry, whether or not you wish to stay legal by not exceeding the GVWR of the trailer, or not exceeding the the GCVWR of the truck, etc. are all questions you must answer for yourself.

Keystone has designed the Montana to fit into the "typical" marketplace with respect to cargo requirements, and TV size - which typically includes the 3/4 and 1 ton TV. The typical heavy duty TV has a GCVWR of around 22K - 23K# range, with truck weights in the 7K - 8K#. This leaves a typical maximum trailer weight of 14K - 15K#. I believe that is why Montana utilizes 6K# axles rather than the 7K# axles.

For example, if you add the 3400RL advertised dry weight of 11650 to the cargo capacity of 2325, you get 13,975#. Subtract the advertised hitchpin weight of 1975 and you have 12,000# left to be supported by the axles. A great percentage of 5ver manufacturers use this approach in specing their trailers. The only way to "specwise" increase the carrying capacity is to use higher capacity axles, or increase the pin weight. This is exactly what hitchhiker does. If you want more cargo capacity, you buy the 7K axles, rims and larger tires, and you have it. No other changes.

If you take a look at most of the larger sized 5vrs that also have the large cargo capacities, you will find they typically have the 7K# axles, with dry weights in the 12K+ range, 3K - 4K cargo capacities, and GVWR in the 15K - 17K range. Almost all of these are too heavy for the typical 3/4 and 1 ton TV's. This is not Montana's market space.

What it boils down to is the Montana has been designed to fit the needs of the typical vacationer and the snowbirder, and perhaps also to the weight consious fulltimer.

However, if you really want to fulltime and carry a lot, you also will need a heavy duty TV to get the job done.

PS

Here's another thought. In specing their trailers, Montana (and most other manufacturers for that matter) do not assume that any of the added cargo weight will be carried by the hitch pin. But such it not typically the case. Most of the 3400 owners will likely agree that their loaded hitch pin weights are pushing 2500# or more. That being the case, the total trailer could weigh in at 14,500# before axle limits would be reached. Although the GVWR of the trailer would be exceeded (a somewhat bogus number anyway) you would be carrying a load of 2850#. Is this still safe? - I think so. Is this legal? I'm not sure, but probably not. Is this for you? You must decide.

I'm sure some will disagree with the above, but that's OK since I can't remember the time that everyone did.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:00 PM   #26
David and Jo-Anna
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Rick--WOW!! Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Let's see if I have digested it correctly.

Your bottom line--that the Montana products are designed for vacationers or snowbirders, or WEIGHT CONSCIOUS FULL TIMERS, seems well taken. If I want to full time in a 3400, I should be weight conscious both in picking options and in loading personal cargo. And since water is sooooooo heavy, I'll refrain from filling the fresh water tank more than 1/3 full except in rare cases of boondocking.

That said, I still have some problems with the question of the validity of the GVWRs Montana assigns to its 5ers. I still haven't heard anyone report about any statement from a knowledgeable Montana person explaining how the GVRWs are arrived at by solid engineering analyses. And your post seems to support my doubts about the Montana GVWRs.

First, your statement that many Montana owners have a pin weight pushing 2500# or more supports my thought that the structure of the Montana can support more weight than the numbers Montana sets forth in its brochures. Also, I thought I had read somewhere that Montana had upgraded to 7000# axles--is that correct? I recognize that the tire ratings don't go that high, but the fact that they can up the axle ratings without changing the GVWR further supports the conclusion that the GVWR is a somewhat bogus number.

As for the issue of "what's legal," I'm not sure what the answer is. I noted in another thread posted in this forum several months ago that one poster said the only "legal" limit was the commercial one of 18,000# per axle. No one challenged that statement in that thread, and I also haven't heard anyone report of an instance of someone being prosecuted legally for being over the manufacturer's GVWR. Also, if we get into legal nitpicking, we have the statement in Montana's FAQs that GVWR is equal to OR GREATER THAN the sum of the Unloaded Vehicle Weight plus the Net Carrying Capacity. Also, I no longer see in the brochures the statement that GVWR= Gross Dry Weight + Carrying Capacity. I'd put those two facts together to challenge any claim by the police that a 2007 3400RL whose actual weight exceeded 13,975# was "illegal." Of course, dealing with the insurance company after an accident would be another matter since most of them seem eager to find any excuse to deny a claim. But they better come forward with an expert who can prove that, but for the alleged overweight condition, the accident would not have happened. I suspect that, in most cases, if you have not exceeded the GCVWR of the tow vehicle, you would have a strong basis for claiming that exceeding the 5ers GVWR was just a warranty issue, not a safety issue or "illegal" act. But I'm open to information to the contrary.

Finally, shifting from the issue of what's "legal" to what's taking place in the real world, I'd like to see if you could clarify for me just what your own experience has been with the weight of your 3400. You may have noticed earlier in this thread that Richfaa and I were trying to reconcile his weight numbers with yours. The number he got when he first weighed his 3400 was 11,896#, which was close to your number of 11,860#. However, he was carrying about 500# of water. His option choices were similar to yours (no hi-gloss or dual pane windows). Can you confirm that you did not have a 2d AC or generator when you did your initial weigh in? And do you know how solid was the 200# number you assigned to your 4 slide awnings? Anything else that you can think of that might explain the differences between you and Rich? And have you weighed your setup since loading it up to see what your real world numbers are looking like now?

Sorry that this post has run on so long--I've just got all these questions I'm trying to answer so I can decide whether to go forward with the 3400. Thanks for your help.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #27
rickfox
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D and J,
Above, Rich mentioned a 11896# figure minus a table, lamp (10#), recliner (50#), but had a 2nd AC (100#) and 2nd battery (40#) - perhaps a total of 90# more.

Our 3400 weighed in at 11860#, or 36# less. The difference of 54# seems pretty close to me. I believe that without the hi-gloss, and double pane windows, the 3400 with propane and batteries is going to weigh in at around 11,900# - leaving only about 2075# for added cargo and water - assuming a GVWR of 13975#.

Interestinly, the outside sticker on our 3400 lists the GVWR as 14,165#. That's because when the 2006 models first came out, the hitch pin was listed at 2165# plus 12,000# for the axles or 14165#. That's great for us since when we are loaded to the gills, the hitch pin is right at 2800# and the axles weigh in right at 11400#. That's nicely under the max. limit on the axles, and 35# over the GVWR of the trailer. Cargo load is 2340# including about 20 gal. water and empty tanks. We have some upper cabinet space along the sides that are not full, but that's about it.

I am under the max load for the TV rear axle, about 400# over on the GVWR of the truck, and under the GCVWR for the whole mess.

For us, the 3400 works, especially since we typically travel with much less than when fully loaded.

My next project, towing my HD motorcyle is underway as I now have the rear hitch installed on the Monty. I wonder how this is all going to work out!
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:06 PM   #28
dsprik
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David, you have got to be some sort of trained investigator/reseacher. Sharp deductions - tireless research (nice spell-check, too). I am picking up my 3400 from the dealer this Thu/Fri. It came out of the plant today - dealer sent someone this afternoon/evening for it. After our 5-7 hr PDI on Thu afternoon, overnight fullhookup stay on the dealer's lot, any minor adjustments on Fri AM...

THEN
I am heading straight for the nearest scales to weigh with all tanks empty. I am running a GMC 2500HD D/A 4x4 w/ ext cab/LB. I will fill the 34 gal fuel tank prior to weighing. I will have my lovely wife and traveling gear with me in the truck.

We have a king bed, dual pane, fireplace, NON-gel coat, 3000 Kipor gen, 2nd A/C, MOC (OK, scratch that last one - the only thing they weigh is heavy on my conscience). We will post ASAP the "sticker in the cupboard" weight, and the "actual" weight here.

And what do you do for a living, David, if I may ask? I am intrigued... also, your place of residence places you close to DC...
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:09 PM   #29
rickfox
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D and J,

I may have misunderstood an earlier post about Rich's weights. If so, I can not account for the differences in the weights.

I have measured our rig on a number of ocassions as I am working on the design of a custom trailer to haul my MC behind the Montana (don't tell Keystone as it won't happen until the warranty expires).

I believe Montana is still using the 6,000# axles, but the Mission tires are now up to 3500# each. I have no information about the ratings on the wheels.

As for weights, I have several CAT scale tickets that show I am within all specifications, and was legal - no matter how you look at it - when the weights were measured. Should an accident ever occur, I do not think the bad guys will be able to successfully speculate that I was overloaded. It is a prudent thing to weigh your rig from time to time and keep the paper work. And from experience I can sit my wife in back of the trailer, take her out completely, stand on the ladder, or what ever, should I care to, and weigh out to be in spec. It costs us $8 for the first weigh and $1 for each additional weigh.

My paperwork shows I'm legal, and almost all the time I am anyway!
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:18 PM   #30
dsprik
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Rick, I will check on my axles. I know there was talk of 7000#, but not sure if it was implemented. It would be a nice surpise on Thursday. Just a side thought... Does a 7000# axle then WEIGH more than a 6000# axle - which would increase the dry weight?
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:22 PM   #31
rickfox
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Dave,

I like guessing. I don't have a clue what the generator will weigh (wild guess is 125#) but I guess $100# for the 2nd AC and 200# for the dual pane windows.

If so, I'm guessing with empty tanks, full propane, and one battery and the above, you will weigh in at 12,325.5# You didn't mention if slide awnings will be included or not - that may change things.
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:34 PM   #32
dsprik
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I knew I'd forget something... slide awnings. Can't remember w/o checking, but I believe 134# on the Kipor... Just checked... 132#. Sheesh... I may need those 7K axles... And a 4500 Kodiak...
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:39 PM   #33
David and Jo-Anna
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Rick:

The big difference in weights between you and Rich is that he believed he had about 500# of water aboard because he hadn't dumped his water after the PDI, and you reported only about 10# of water. That would drop his "dry" weight down to 11,400# compared to your 11,860#. You had the slide awnings--not sure if Rich did--which could account for part of the difference. You estimated they weighed 200#, which still leaves about a 300# difference when you toss in his 2d AC. At this point, 300# seems like a big thing--that could be a 2d AC plus a washer/dryer plus .... LOL LOL. Seems weird to be excited about finding 300# more of a weight allowance to use.

As for the higher GVWR that Montana put on the early 2006 3400s, since I assume they didn't change anything structurally when they dropped the pin weight to 1975# in later brochures, it just reinforces my belief that their GVWR numbers are bogus.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:51 PM   #34
David and Jo-Anna
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Dave--I'm really looking forward to the results of your weigh in. Wonder how much difficulty we'll have trying to reconcile your numbers with Rich and Rick's numbers. Also looking forward to hearing about the results of your PDI. Are you going to use Rich's PDI sheet, or have you developed your own?

As for your inquiry about me, yes I live in Alexandria Virginia, which is right across the Potomac river from DC--it would be a pretty drive along the river on my way to work if it weren't for the %$@&% traffic. Really looking forward to retirement at the end of next year. As for what I do, let's just say for now that many years ago I worked as a telecommunications engineer for a year after getting out of the Navy, until I went over to the dark side. Don't know that I want to say more at this point--might get banned from the forum. My wife and I are planning to come to the Fall Rally--if you are there, and if I have enough to drink, I may confess my sins.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:03 AM   #35
richfaa
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Rickfox GVWR says 14,160..mine says 13,975..Oh I also have the Mor ryde pin box that must weigh more than OEM pin box.The more I read this thread the less sense the weight numbers make..All I can say is ours weighed what it weighed and evryones elses weighed what they weighed..It would be nice to get the strigt answers from Keystone..Looks like I will be doing the phone call thing to Keystone when we return. Question....I need to speak to the person who knows ..for sure..how these things are weighed and what the correct weights are..Side note...we never saw a scale anywhere around the factory,,might be one..we never saw one..
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:27 AM   #36
dsprik
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by David and Jo-Anna

.... As for what I do, let's just say for now that many years ago I worked as a telecommunications engineer for a year after getting out of the Navy, until I went over to the dark side. Don't know that I want to say more at this point--might get banned from the forum. My wife and I are planning to come to the Fall Rally--if you are there, and if I have enough to drink, I may confess my sins.
Oh no!!! Don't tell me you work for...... JAYCO!

I look forward to visiting with you, David. I'll bring the oral ethanol ("truth serum")... .
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:52 AM   #37
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The weight issue is very interesting part of RV ownership and I bought my first slide in Camper back in 1974 and it was over 500 pounds heavier than the brochure weight so this lack of accuracy has been around forever.
It is comical to read how they put one propane bottle on each side of the coach to balance the weight. One of my kitchen chairs weighs more than a propane bottle. MMMMmmmmm that's the one I use for hardware storage. Yes it has about 20 pounds of junk in it. I guess Keystone isn't the only factor in the weights of our units.
In this thread there are references to overloading the pin weight. IMO you can't do this without going way over the coach's GVWR. Fifth wheels just naturally put more weight on the pin as you load the unit. If they are made to put more weight on the axles, then the axles slide to the rear and you see this on commercial Fifth wheels.
The pin weight is kept light on the brochures for one reason and one reason only, and that is to
make it appear you can tow a unit with a lighter truck than you should. It is all about sales and if a manufacturer posted pin weights that were closer to the truth, they would lose so many sales. On the other side of the argument, all weight bearing things have a safety margin built in. I am pleased that I can load my unit the way I want to and still have all my weights within the specs of the TV and the Montana. That is great.
Would I be comfortable being 1000 pounds over on any of the weights? Yes absolutely.
Would I be comfortable being 3000 pounds over on the truck's GVWR but have the combined weight
and trailer axles still good. Absolutely not and I would not want anybody sharing my highway with me and a combination like this. But they are out there and they shouldn't be.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:53 AM   #38
dsprik
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Rickfox GVWR says 14,160..mine says 13,975..Oh I also have the Mor ryde pin box that must weigh more than OEM pin box.The more I read this thread the less sense the weight numbers make..All I can say is ours weighed what it weighed and evryones elses weighed what they weighed..It would be nice to get the strigt answers from Keystone..Looks like I will be doing the phone call thing to Keystone when we return. Question....I need to speak to the person who knows ..for sure..how these things are weighed and what the correct weights are..Side note...we never saw a scale anywhere around the factory,,might be one..we never saw one..
We can ask when we are there, Rich. I know as far as myself weighing the unit, there is a scale at the Ohio/Michigan border on US-23.

Also, as a side note, with all those other mfrs in Goshen pumping out all those units everyday... I'd be curious as to what their "Dry Weight" determination procedures are. Have a feeling it could be an exercise in futility, as it's possible that they all have an "understood" industry procedure for this that would make this as difficult to decipher as Keystone's ambiguous policy.

Maybe a good question would be, "Who prints out that sticker? Who actually is the person that presses the "ENTER" button and then who actually applies it to the cupboard wall. They certainly don't just print a batch of 3400 (and other model #s) stickers, throw all these stickers in a bin labeled "3400 Weight Stickers", then put them on the line to be applied when the cupboards are attached... do they?

Also, another variable is that the DEALER installs most of the options (except Gel Coat/Dual Panes) AFTER the weight sticker is pasted on the cabinent. 2nd A/Cs, W/D, air pin boxes, etc.

Rich did you get the pics of all of us at Mackinaw that I sent?
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:10 AM   #39
David and Jo-Anna
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Don--Your point about why RV manufacturers would intentionally understate their RVs' pin weight capability makes a lot of sense--much more sense than the casual way in which Keystone seems to put together its weight numbers. I'd love to join in asking them some pointed questions when we visit the factory during the Fall Rally--but I'm doubtful they would give us a straight answer--indeed, I wonder if they have anyone at Montana who actually has done a good engineering analysis on this.

All--So what do people think the safe limit on pin weight is for the 3400? Don is comfortable that he could go more than 1000# over the 1975# number Montana puts in its brochure. What do others believe based on their experiences?
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:29 AM   #40
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I just thought I would post what is on the label of our 3400 that we bought a month ago.

13975 GVWR
11900

498 for water
60 for propane

leaving us 1517 for stuff.

Our Monty does not have the Mor ryd pin box, awnings or dual pane windows.

We have the regular gel coat, fireplace, one AC, fireplace, king size bed, two recliners, table and lamp. It looks like the same sticker is being posted on units with different options. We have not weighed our rig, not sure where the nearest weigh station is.

David,

I think the recliners weigh more than 50# they are very heavy.

Colleen
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