Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum

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-   -   Tires and Spring Hangers (http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55226)

steves 08-31-2013 11:17 AM

Tires and Spring Hangers
 
I had a call from a person who I gave my Montana Card to. He seems to have trouble signing on but believe it to be his issues. Anyway he asked be to just remind all to check your spring hangers and tires. He had to replace and reinforce all his spring hangers and ruined one G614 due to a broken hanger on his 06 3400. Guess I'll crawl under the old gal and check things out before I leave for the rally.

WeBeFulltime 08-31-2013 02:06 PM

Has this person registered with the forum as required?

steves 08-31-2013 04:50 PM

Yes

Phil P 09-01-2013 05:07 AM

Hi

I have had to repair one spring hanger.

I am not sure what failed first the spring hanger or the frame.

We had to repair the frame above the spring hanger as well.

That scab patch you see from the web to the flange was installed at the factory. The manufacturer is very aware they have a problem in that area but apparently don’t have an engineer that can tell them how to fix it.


http://67.76.116.38/montana-frame-040412/dsc01532-1.jpg

Phil P

Art-n-Marge 09-01-2013 05:57 AM

I know of someone else who lost a spring hanger. I helped my BIL replace his after we also found that the leaf spring pack had broken a couple of leafs. We're not sure if the hanger broke causing the leafs to break or the other way around. Nevertheless, it was not pretty. He was on his way home 100 miles away coming back from a trip near where we live, then the break occurred and he happened to be blocks away, so he immediately called us. We told him to stop on by and he parked in front of the house where we found the damage and planned the repair. He bought the new leaf springs (a little higher rating this time), then found the broken hanger. He then bought the hanger and had a portable welder remove the old piece and weld on the new hanger. With the trailer on blocks, the new leaf springs were then attached, then he was able to go on his way back home. Lotta luck involved here.

It's very good advice to check the suspension before a trip, not just torque the wheels and fill the tires. You hope you can catch something that can turn into something major. I do get under the rig for a look-see nowadays. Especially since my rig sits a lot between trips.

KathyandDave 09-01-2013 01:06 PM

We welded a plate across the hanger, then a gusset from the plate to the I beam of the frame, all four hangers. Based on info from the moc and personal observation of an moc member's rig where the hanger broke away from the frame inbound to the goshen rally four years ago.

KathyandDave 09-01-2013 01:09 PM

We have replaced the marathons with Goodyear g614's with new 110lb-rated wheels from tredit. Tredit helped us with this.

Irlpguy 09-01-2013 04:51 PM

Phil I am wondering if you know if the same type of "web" is welded onto the I beam on the inside as well as the outside.

So this is how Lippert engineers decided to strengthen the frame, obviously aware that the their frame is weak at this critical point. It is the same on my 2012 and is an absolute joke.

I have a Quad trailer with a 3500 lb single axle under it, the spring hangers on that trailer are the same thickness (1/4") as they are on our Montana's, supposedly capable of handling 15.500 lbs GVWR.

That is the most disgusting bit of repair work I have ever seen. If that was done at the Keystone factory I would be talking to my lawyer.
Man they did not even put some paint on it. I am simply amazed and appalled.



Phil P 09-02-2013 02:37 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Phil I am wondering if you know if the same type of "web" is welded onto the I beam on the inside as well as the outside.

That is the most disgusting bit of repair work I have ever seen. If that was done at the Keystone factory I would be talking to my lawyer.
Man they did not even put some paint on it. I am simply amazed and appalled.
Hi

#1 there isn’t a scab patch on the inside of the “I” beam. The black one you see was put there by one of the manufacturers.

#2 that type of gusset doesn’t improve the strength of an “I” beam. It takes what the engineers call a “Fish Plate” on both sides of the “I” beam. The strap was extended all the way up to the top flange of the “I” beam to reinforce the area that was heated to give the “I” beam straight.

#2 I consider the unpainted repair to be excellent. The frame was badly damaged, had to be heat straightened and the entire job was performed in a cow pasture by a certified welder from one of the pipe line companies. If you have any complaints about the looks of the job then you come out and lie on the ground under that trailer in a cow pasture and do a better job.

#3 I don’t intend to paint it.

Phil P

Irlpguy 09-02-2013 04:52 AM

[quote]
Originally posted by Phil P

#1 there isn’t a scab patch on the inside of the “I” beam. The black one you see was put there by one of the manufacturers.

It was the black one I was referring to not the newly added piece.

#2 that type of gusset doesn’t improve the strength of an “I” beam. It takes what the engineers call a “Fish Plate” on both sides of the “I” beam. The strap was extended all the way up to the top flange of the “I” beam to reinforce the area that was heated to give the “I” beam straight.

You are right it does not "improve" the strength of the "I" beam. That was my suggestion when I refereed to the Lippert engineers who design these frames and in who's factory they are built.

#2 I consider the unpainted repair to be excellent. The frame was badly damaged, had to be heat straightened and the entire job was performed in a cow pasture by a certified welder from one of the pipe line companies. If you have any complaints about the looks of the job then you come out and lie on the ground under that trailer in a cow pasture and do a better job.

You made reference to the scab patch being done at the factory, I wrongly assumed it was the unpainted part. As a field repair it may have been the best job possible. I am not a professional welder, I do know how to weld and have a wire feed welder, but I made no suggestion I could do a better job, the important thing is you are satisfied with the outcome.

#3 I don’t intend to paint it.

To paint it or not is your choice, I just would never leave a weld and additional material unpainted, especially on a expensive RV.

In their effort to make these RV's larger and lighter they have compromised on materials and strength, the original damage is a result of that compromise since the hanger or frame failed and should be engineered not to fail under normal circumstances. Sad but true.

richfaa 09-02-2013 06:31 AM

we had the Mor Ryde Is system installed on our 06 3400 an d we are becoming more and more inclined to have it installed on this 13 3402 Big Sky.

Chip 09-02-2013 09:47 AM

This looks like what it is a field repair only. If it were my rig I would get it to a proper repair facility ASAP.


Phil P 09-02-2013 02:57 PM

Irlpguy

I may have been a little quick to say some of the things I did. Please accept my apologies.

I note you refer to a wire feed machine. Most consumers that have some welding experience have never seen a welding job performed with an AC welder. All of these pretty welds you see are performed with one of 2 types of welding machines. The DC welder using reverse polarity or a gas shield welder TIG or MIG.

The AC welder doesn’t make a real pretty weld when welding vertical or over head but does do as structurally as good a job when the operator is properly trained. That is why when I need a welder I find one from a pipe line company. They are recertified very often.

You will notice that the bottom of the unpainted strap is not welded. My metal structures engineer specified the not to be welded.

Richfaa

The only RV I have looked at that had the Mor/ryde IS installed I found that Mor/ryde had seriously modified the frame. I also found that they adhere to some welding principals that Lippert obviously doesn’t know about.

The last time I mentioned this lack of welding expertise at Lipper’s facility I was told that the frame was welded by a machine. That only means if you have a poorly trained operator you get all welds done poorly.

I have communicated with Mor/ryde about a couple of units that belonged to widow lady friends (you would be surprised at how many woman keep the RV after their husband passes) of my wife’s that had Mor/ryde VIN plates on them. Mor/ryde's capabilities are very far ranging any they are well known for their quality work.

If I ever get over my bad experience with an IS system (unknown manufacturer) Mor/ryde would be the only company I would want to modify the trailer for an IS installation.

Phil P

Irlpguy 09-02-2013 08:10 PM

Phil no apology necessary.

I was in the equipment rental business for many years after getting out of the navy, in fact sold my business and retired some years ago. We rented Lincoln gas driven welders and AC welders that could be wired for 220,440 or 550 volts to the oil and gas industry building gas plants all over Alberta Canada. I have watched welders doing welds that all had to be xrayed and welding vertically and overhead, some of them were amazing and the welds were better than I could do on the flat.

My wire feed is a Miller and I use 70/30 mix of gas, it is capable of making a weld that is just plain good to look at, but I don't get that very often myself unfortunately...

You have experienced way more than your share of problems with your unit, there were things that were not right from the get go and you suffer the brunt of the result of that.

The material used on these spring hangers on this size of RV should not be 1/4", at the very least it should be 5/16 and perhaps best at 3/8. The length of the hanger has a bearing on it's stability as well, these seem longer than necessary to me.

Machine welded eh! well the hand that guides it needs more experience....



richfaa 09-03-2013 07:58 AM

PhilP; Mor Ryde did not modify the frame on our 06 3400 in any way when installing out Mor Ryde IS Suspension. They did build the Is system for my unit. It was not a off the shelf system. I watch the welder put it and my hitch together. Lippert has two plants in the Elkhart /Goshen area one is where they build the RV frames and the other metal fabricating plant. they have nothing to do with Rv frames at that plant as we stopped there once. We did see some machine welding at the Lippert frame plant.

Irlpguy 09-03-2013 08:54 AM

Rich, I am curious to know if the IS install on your 06 required the addition of extra tubing to the frame to allow for additional wheel clearance as it suggests in the installation instructions, or were you ok in that respect.

richfaa 09-03-2013 09:58 AM

Ed .They first take the unit out front on level ground and measure the actual height then they ask you "how high would you like it" We were Ok and they made no adjustment but we did note a installation of a Mobile Suites there at the same time that they did have to raise it a bit. Had I wanted our to be higher they would have has to raise it a bit. We were at 12'7"

mhs4771 09-03-2013 11:04 AM

Rich is correct about the measurements that Mor/ryde does. In some cases they do need to build up the frame to keep the unit at the same height. Those Guys are professionals at what they do and stand behind their work. We had our Montana done and had our SOB done this past spring.

Phil P 09-03-2013 02:36 PM

Richfaa

IS could not be put on the frame under my trailer without the installer putting a cross member in place of the axels. If they didn’t the frame would roll over like a pretzel the first bump I hit.

The unit I looked at had a round seamless tub in place of the axel at both locations welded to the frame. Then there were square tubes to level the unit like you are talking about. Then there were some stamped fittings that were welded correctly not like Lippert does them.

The Lippert frame under that unit and mine would not stand the twisting load it would be subject to without some sort of support between the 2 frame rails.

Your 06 may well have had a different frame under it. I have been watching this forum and others, the frame problems didn’t seem to become apparent until about 08.

When I talke to an owner on the road the fellows that have the older units from new haven’t had near the problems we see here and I am not talking about just frames.

I am not sure what division of the FAA you were in but if it was in engineering and manufacturing then you should have come to a vary apparent conclusion about my trailer.

Phil P

richfaa 09-03-2013 04:06 PM

No I was on the technical side. Electronic tech. Radar, Computers.


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